Author Topic: Regarding buff gunners: Consider this  (Read 145 times)

Offline flakbait

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« on: July 24, 2000, 03:42:00 AM »
I've heard more than one person tell me this and reading through the Super Buff gunner thread got me thinking about it. Picture this:
B-17 at 25k, running at 180mph heading 090. If the right waist gunner [firing on heading 180] starts shooting at a target here's what is happening. Every round he's firing is fighting a 180mph sidewind, really throwing off accuracy. Now if the nose gunner starts shooting, every round he fires is fighting a 180mph headwind. Naturally this reduces the effective range of every round. On to the tail gun; every shot he fires has an advantage...180mph tailwind. This INCREASES both accuracy and effective range. Here's what a B-47 pilot said about tail guns:

"The problem that MIG fighters faced against us was the wind. See, we could shoot at them before they could even get within gun range. Believe it or not; it was the wind. Every time he fires at us his bullets have a 500 knot headwind to fight. Now our tail guns could fire out to a longer range, and with more accuracy, because they weren't fighting that 500 knot headwind. They had a 500 knot wind alright; but it was coming from behind. We could just sit there, if we wanted to, and shoot down MIGs as long as our ammo held out. "

Granted, a tailwind for a tail gunner means some help. But in order to gain 400 yards of accurate firing range our B-17 would have to move around at close to 270mph indicated airspeed. Consequently, the nose guns, ball and top turrets should have a slightly reduced max effective range due to that wind.
If anything, the added wind effects on the ballistics of each round is a little off. The tail guns shoot too far, there's not enough dispersion from a waist gun when firing sideways etc...

Just for reference: a .50 caliber round drops  3 feet below the point of aim at 500 yards. This is sitting still on the ground with only gravity acting, so imagine what would happen at 25,000 feet and 180mph.


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Offline Jekyll

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2000, 04:12:00 AM »
 
Quote
Just for reference: a .50 caliber round drops 3 feet below the point of aim at 500 yards. This is sitting still on the ground with only gravity acting, so imagine what would happen at 25,000 feet and 180mph.

Err.. I would imagine the bullet would drop somewhat less than 3 feet, however, you're quite right that you would have to lead the target a bit, I would say about 13 feet to allow for the wind effect.


Offline Fishu

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2000, 04:28:00 AM »
These AH bullets in B-17 hits plane which is front of the B-17 about 1.5k away, I have done that myself. (theres not only headwind oppising the bullet, but theres also faster plane, and still I get hits from 1.5k)
Also P-47 can do the same job with its eight .50 calibers, get hits at least up to 1.5k (and this was being tested against typhoon 1.4k away and on acks & M16s from 1.5-1.4k away)

Offline flakbait

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2000, 09:22:00 AM »
Jekyll: the specs for modern .50BMG rounds are listed below. I borrowed these from Guns & Ammo 1997 Annual; there's ballistics tables in the back.

Caliber: .50BMG
Weight: 650 grains [x 7,000 for lbs]
Bullet type: Full Metal Jacket

Trajectory: Listed as inches either below or above the barrel level. Barrel level is set to 0º, level with the ground.

100: +2.8
150: +3.2
200: +2.3
250: +0.0
300: -3.8
400: -16.6
500: -37.2

Velocity & Energy: Velocity measured in feet per second [fps] energy measured in foot-pounds [ft-lbs].
v. = velocity in fps, e. = energy in ft-lbs

muzzle: v.2910 e.12,220
100: v.2694 e.8942
200: v.2489 e.7587
300: v.2292 e.6396
400: v.2105 e.5358
500: v.1926 e.4585

Now you've got actual ballistics to work with. This is, however, information for .50BMG [browning machine gun] made these days and not 60 years ago.


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Offline Karnak

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2000, 10:18:00 AM »
The bullet heading in the same direction as the B-17 is not only fighting a 180mph headwind, it also has an extra 180mph velocity when leaving the barrel.  The tail guns have 180mph less velocity.

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Offline hitech

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2000, 10:30:00 AM »
flakbait:
I belive that chart you list is above or below sight line not barrel. And that the standard sighting range was 250.

Also an easy way to picture whats going on with balasitics from a b17 is to view wind only from head on of the bullet.

And picture the bullet taking on the planes velocity. I.E. If you are shooting from the right waist. Your bullet will travel more to the left then if you were shooting from a stationary platform.
Take a b17 and shoot at some ground targets to see the effect.

HiTech

SpyHawk

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Regarding buff gunners: Consider this
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2000, 10:41:00 AM »
I still like my solution the best  

Increase the recoil dispersion effect on buff guns so they can't quite so easily maintaint he water hose effect on fighters.