Which Way Do I Turn?

[FLOTSOM]

http://www.bss214.com/tactics/tacticsguide.html Here's a site with some basic and advanced merges and tactics.

cool sight Uptown thanx

FLOTSOM

[CAP1]

i don't really know if i've managed to apply some of htis information to my fights yet or not.

what i have tried, though, was when fighting a spit(i think, i'll try to find film) i have a tendency to try to keep my lift vector pointed towards my bandit. that works pretty well for me in spits, hurris, zeeks, and even the hellkitty. not so much in the 38, although out of habit, i try it.
 last night, i was fighting this guy, and i started the same way. then i hesitated for a split second, and rolled AWAY from him, came round, and ended up with a quick snapshot, which i think i missed. i still died, but i think i lasted longer than i would have had i continued following him.

this thread is what went through my head, causing me to decide to try that.



keep em comming sir!!

<<S>>

[A8TOOL]

I REALLY like this thread. Been following it not long after it started and it has some very good information.

I took a simpler approach,  (if he comes at me from the left I turn right as he pases. From the right I'd turn left, always trying to meet him in his turn)    but this thread has helped expanded that particular thought process.

 Thanks guys ..you

[CAP1]

I REALLY like this thread. Been following it not long after it started and it has some very good information.

I took a simpler approach,  (if he comes at me from the left I turn right as he pases. From the right I'd turn left, always trying to meet him in his turn)    but this thread has helped expanded that particular thought process.

 Thanks guys ..you

that's why i bumped it the other day. this is probably oneof the best and most informative threads i've seen on these forums. it needs to not die or get buried.


thanks DT!!

<<S>>

[dtango]

Hi folks, glad some of you all are enjoying this thread.  I have more examples to post but it takes time to get it all together.  Here's the next one for folks to chew on!


EXAMPLE 3

Here's another example of applying some of these principles in action.

Attached Film:
http://thetongsweb.net/412th/film1_412th+lazer_0001.ahf

In this particular example we'll visit the concept of decision making in a out-numbered, defensive situation.  The fight itself evolved from a 1 v 2 to a 2 v many but we'll focus on the initial 1 v 2 situation to illustrate turning principles. 

This is also an interesting fight in the sense that there are more enemies than good guys and I'm not above the bogies which means it presents a lot of challenges from an energy management stand point.

FRAME 1


In this example I found myself at an energy / altitude disadvantage with two P-38's in my P-51D.  The P-38's established in a high six a clock position and started to dive in.  As they do so I have a decision to make.  Frame 1 depicts how I respond which is to try and turn back into the attacking P-38's.

In the turn back into the P-38's, I'm trying to accomplish two things.  First I'm trying to create an geometry problem by increasing the P-38's angle-off-tail (AOT) on my Mustang.  Second the increase in AOT can result in a flight path overshoot by the P-38's if they continue to press the attack.

Several key factors play a role in my decision making in this turn back into the P-38's.  Assessing the relative energy states I know I'm near or just above corner velocity in my Mustang and that the P-38's are probably even faster than me.  Second they are above me which means I can use gravity against them as well (more on this concept later).  All this means that my turn radius will be less and turn rate greater than the P-38's allowing me to create more angles than than can gain on me.

In making the turn back into the P-38's, as I see them committed to the diving attack I also make a portion of the turn with my lift vector pointed below the horizon.



As mentioned above in this thread gravity is a factor to consider turns with vertical components.  This allows gravity to work with my turn and not against it further increasing my turn performance.  Here's another diagram to reinforce the concept:



This images depicts an aircraft making a contant 4-g turn in the vertical.  Radial acceleration represents the acceleration due to lift while normal acceleration is the total acceleration experienced by the aircraft including gravitational acceleration.  Essentially normal acceleration is the absolute acceleration experienced by the aircraft while radial acceleration is what we read on the accelerometer (g-load meter) in the plane.

Notice that at the bottom of the "loop" that gravity works directly opposite that of lift.  This results in an absolute acceleration of 3 g's instead of 4.  The net result is that the turn radius is increased and turn rate decreased.  This is gravity working against a turn.  At the top of the loop the effect is exactly opposite.  Notice that the absolute normal acceleration is 5 g's instead of 4.  This is because gravity is working in the same direction as lift and the net effect is reduced turn radius and increased turn rate.

Okay let's see what happens next.

Frame 2


In Frame 2 one P-38 presses the attack while the other holds high.  As can be seen the turn back into the P-38's and the increased AOT causes the attacking P-38 to overshoot.  This is another decision point.  What should I do in the Mustang?  Should I keep turning to my left?  Should I straighten out?  Should I turn back into the P-38?

Two factors are key in my decision making: 

A)I haven't blown a bunch of energy in my turn and am still near corner velocity.  Things that helped this - It was made with a slight climb to trade some speed for altitude before going oblique nose low and reefing it in.  Also I have WEP on to counter the energy-bleed in a max performance turn.
 
B)The P-38 has a bunch of smash (374 mph) and well above my corner velocity but also now moving into a lag pursuit position on my P-51.

So it appears I'm at my max turning potential while the P-38 will turn worse.  However the P-38 is now moving into lag pursuit which means that if I continue my turn in the direction I have been he can use a lag pursuit curve to negate any angles I can generate more than the P-38 and get into a advantageous position.

When these factors in mind I thus make a nose-to-nose turn back into the P-38 which is depicted in Frame 3.

Frame 3


The P-38 continues to press the attack in a nose-to-nose direction and is able to get a brief snapshot which I risk.  Note that my reversal back into the P-38 is again with lift vector pointed below the horizon to get a gravity assist in the turn.  Since I'm near corner and the P-38 is faster than me I know that overall I can create angles without having to blow a lot of energy in the nose-to-nose.  This is important because I know that I have to bank up as much maneuvering potential because having the P-38's wingman just on top as well as having plenty of other bad guys close by.

The nose-to-nose forces another decision point.  The P-38 and I cross paths.  Which way do I turn now?

Frame 4


Frame 4 shows the choice I make.  This time instead of making a nose-to-nose back into the P-38, I stay in the right hand turn which means I'm now in a nose-to-tail turn instead.  Key factors in making this decision:

A) I've created enough angles between the first P-38 and am picking up some energy in the process.  Because of the high threat environment I'm now trying to get him to expend energy while I gain it to give me options.  The nose-to-tail turn increases my separation and also causes the first P-38 to have to go through a lot more angles to get pointed at me.  I'm hoping that he does that to start changing the energy margin.  As can be seen that's starting to happen with me now at 335 mph and him 288 mph.

B) 2ndly all the while I've kept an eye on his buddy and am trying to increase AOT for the 2nd P-38 that is now pressing his attack on me too.

Frame 5


In Frame 5 the first P-38 is essentially no longer a factor thanks to the nose-to-tail turn, however the 2nd P-38 is diving in now for the attack.  Which way should I turn now?

I respond to the 2nd P-38 by turning back into him in the pure vertical.  Key in my thinking is exploiting gravity so that I'm using it for me while simultaneously using it against him.





Remember that in the vertical if your lift vector is oriented below the horizon then your turn performance increases while having your lift vector oriented above the horizon decreases your turn performance.  In a pure vertical turn / loop, the bottom half of the loop between the points where an aircraft's lift vector is 90 degrees to the horizon and the aircraft going straight down or straight up, gravity is working against you.

Frame 6 depicts what happens next.

Frame 6


Upon the merge with the 2nd P-38 I continue the direction of my turn creating a nose-to-tail turn with the 2nd P-38.  I'm doing this again to gain separation and energy from the 2nd P-38 as well as actually setting up a merge with the 1st P-38 trying to get back into the game.

With the 1st P-38 I point my nose at him and merge as close to head-to-head I dare possible without getting hit from a face shot demonstrating the principle of trying to counter any vertical separation room that he has to use to create a lead turn into me.

The fight eventually leads to me and Lazer conducting a fighting egress against the bad guys bagging some kills in the process.  In the direction of turns made it possible for me to take away the initial energy and angles advantages the P-38's had eventually allow the fight to be dictated on the good guys' terms .

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[mechanic]

tango... you rock  

S!

[TequilaChaser]

Remember that in the vertical if your lift vector is oriented below the horizon then your turn performance increases while having your lift vector oriented above the horizon decreases your turn performance.  In a pure vertical turn / loop, the bottom half of the loop between the points where an aircraft's lift vector is 90 degrees to the horizon and the aircraft going straight down or straight up, gravity is working against you.

in this example, would it all be based on the speed at which your aircraft enters into the vertical loop or hi-yoyo, or pitch back? I can easily see and understand your concept / theory...but  their are those "out of the normal box of thinking" times that when you enter a fight and go vertical or per say have your lift vector pointed above the horizon that it is in fact going to be increasing your turn performance until you bleed enough energy that it begins to decrease turn performance? did I explain that correctly......all this deals with variables....ie....the constant speed/G load/loop diagram is shown as being"constant"........

if you enter a fight merging at a high rate of speed, then pointing that lift vector above the horizon is actually helping you to a certian limit, before it goes toward a negative performance factor......

btw.....very excellent post/lecture dtango......I would appreciate it if you could clarify more thoroughly on what I have just questioned in this post/reply

[CAP1]

is there any possibility of getting this thread stickied? it'd be nice to see this stay up top.

on a seperat note.......my head hurts from all the information. the only possible way to improve on this format, would be to "narrarate" what you're doing as you're fighting.

 unfortunatly, some of us cannot post films due to the poopoo that comes outta our mouths in a fight. 

please!! keep the info comming sir!! as your ime allows!


<S>> and happy holidays!

[dtango]

in this example, would it all be based on the speed at which your aircraft enters into the vertical loop or hi-yoyo, or pitch back? I can easily see and understand your concept / theory...but  their are those "out of the normal box of thinking" times that when you enter a fight and go vertical or per say have your lift vector pointed above the horizon that it is in fact going to be increasing your turn performance until you bleed enough energy that it begins to decrease turn performance? did I explain that correctly......all this deals with variables....ie....the constant speed/G load/loop diagram is shown as being"constant"........

if you enter a fight merging at a high rate of speed, then pointing that lift vector above the horizon is actually helping you to a certian limit, before it goes toward a negative performance factor......

TC:

You're absolutely right, I need to clarify.  Turn performance is definitely a function of airspeed.  Lord know's I preached enough times on the BBS over the years to try and constantly clear up misconceptions about thinking turn performance increases below corner velocity .

You've pointed out a key point of the "tactical egg" diagram above and that it assumes constant AIRSPEED and constant G.  Of course in reality this situation isn't realistic because our airspeed is usually decreasing or increasing in a turn like this.  The following diagram compares the constant airspeed/G vs. the more realistic example for a jet fighter of constant thrust/G.



So certainly factoring airspeed into the equation in relative terms the bottom half of a vertical turn it's conceivable that turn performance is better at the bottom half of the loop because we're turning at corner there vs. slower airspeeds at the upper part of the loop.  Turning at or near corner is still where we optimize turn performance lift vector pointed above horizon not-withstanding.

Regardless, gravity is working against an airplane in the bottom half of a vertical turn.  This means even if we're bleeding down and turning near corner in the bottom half of the vertical turn, the turn performance is still degraded compared to what it would be with lift vector pointed below the horizon at the same airspeed.  The implication here is that folks that don't undertand this may expect a certain turn performance they are used to and can't understand why they aren't getting around as quickly as they are used not realizing that it's because gravity is working against the radial acceleration of lift reducing the absolute g-load of the turn.

Hope that helps to clarify!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[dtango]

on a seperat note.......my head hurts from all the information. the only possible way to improve on this format, would be to "narrarate" what you're doing as you're fighting.

I don't think I could narrate this real time in a fight!  The OODA loop is operating way too fast!  What I have thought about is to go through the examples in more of a video narrative format instead of just flashing images and text like the above but that takes a heck of a lot more work!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[TequilaChaser]

Thanks dtango, that's what I was looking for..for others to see anyways......great clarification!

now on a nother note:
We classify turns as being Instantaneous Turn/turn rate & Sustained Turn/turn rate....... yet on the 1st page of this Very Informative thread they are listed as One Turn & or Two Turn ( fights )

Both you and I, as well as most vets understand the difference, but to explain a bit further.....

One should combine the two (2) different types of turns ( Instantaneeous & Sustained ) in conjunction with the two different types of combat engagement turns?   pardon me if I have mucked this up,  just don't want to have a student say:

well I read on the AH BBS that the 2 types of turns is 1 turn circle & 2 turn circle! ...... ?

and yes I agree the 2 Circle fight is the most under estimated/used in the game........as well as people not understanding the 3 dimensional aspect of geometery, where even in a one circle fight, if you move your turn(circle) offset of your oponents turn (circle) you can manipulate his flight path to obtain a shooting solution...

dtango,  really have enjoyed this thread, Sir 

EDITED:
I must back-up a few steps, from my 1st posting of this reply. dtango has already in a sense described sustained turn performance turn rates to a degree.....I should have refreshed my memory of this thread before posting this reply! Also in reference to my mentioning of " 3 dimensional geometery thinking, dtango touched on this briefly in Reply#33:

One more thing.  All the above I've posted so far assume that lateral or vertical separation isn't really a factor meaning any lateral or vertical separation at the merge between opponents isn't enough to make a difference.  You have to take that into account as well.  I was going to introduce the concept via other examples but your's and others questions about a nose-to-nose merge in the vertical leads into the discussion.

Here's a pic from the AH Trainers website on the topic of merges:

(Image removed from quote.)

Here we have two airplanes with essentially the same turn radius and turn rate.  Nose-to-nose, radius is the key factor right?  Therefore no one has the advantage then.  Well throw in vertical or lateral separation. The vertical separation is enough between the aircraft to become a factor now as depicted in the picture.  The airplane that started lower in the merge gains the advantage despite both aircraft having the same turn radius and rate.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

I just wanted to go a step further in mentioning offseting your position/seperation all be it vertical, horizontal or lateral well into a fight engagement will offer or can offer you an opportunity to obtain a firing solution....

one last thought I continouly have, is probably 99% of the people in the game are always worried about best sustained turn rate / sustained turn performance.......if you shy away from or throw out any thoughts toward a planes Instantaneous Turn Performance/Instantaneous Turn Rate, the wolf in sheeps clothing will tear you up!........ one of the advantages of flying a P51 series vs a spitfire for example......my apologies for the oversight from the 1st page, dtango, I replyed without refreshing my memory......

[dtango]

Yeah TC,

I assume that people already know the difference between an instantaneous turn vs. a sustained turn.  The concept is embedded in the discussion when rate and radius is mentioned.  I also assume folks recognize that rate and radius vary throughout maneuvering. 

This gives rise to what is referred in BFM to the "fish-hook" shape of a turn which represents an airplane starting a max performance turn above corner speed and then bleeding down in the turn to about corner.  The shape of the turn (viewed from above) looks like a fish-hook as depicted in the following diagram:



Of course the above diagram only shows the bleed down to corner.  If we include the time history of the turn to include not only bleed down to corner but also continued bleed it gives us a more complete view and understanding of variation of rate and radius.  The following diagram shows a P-51D making a max performance turn in AH starting above corner and holding that turn into the Mustang's best sustained turn.



As depicted in the diagram, with visual inspection the radius decreases until it reaches a minimum but then increasing after that.  This demonstrates the turn radius decreasing above corner, reaching a minimum at corner, and then growing again below corner.  It's harder to visualize the change in rate but rate does the similar thing increasing until it reaches corner and then decreasing belong corner.

Here's the same picture with overlays of different turn circles to help visualize the changing radii more clearly.



Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Cobra516]

The corner velocity (max turn rate) for any airplane is the lowest speed at which you're still able to pull maximum G's (in AH this would be to blackout) - easy way to think about it and find that speed for various a/c.

[CAP1]

I don't think I could narrate this real time in a fight!  The OODA loop is operating way too fast!  What I have thought about is to go through the examples in more of a video narrative format instead of just flashing images and text like the above but that takes a heck of a lot more work!

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

yaknow what's funny? i suggested that, right?  whelp...the other night, just for giggles, i decided to try "narrating" a buff attack. well.......that lasted till the second pass, then i think i slipped a couple expletives, as his gunners removed parts from me p38 o deth.

 your way sounds much much better. even the way you're doing it is good. for a little bit there, i thought i was putting some of it to work. now, though,i feel like i'm missing something somewhwere again. gonna print this entire thread when i get home, to make it easier to re-read.

[TequilaChaser]

The corner velocity (max turn rate) for any airplane is the lowest speed at which you're still able to pull maximum G's (in AH this would be to blackout) - easy way to think about it and find that speed for various a/c.

and you are absolutely sure about your quoted post above? or you just guessing?