A question about the pony

[Ack-Ack]

AA is more cautious than me about who he pisses off

Not at all, if you notice it's only the 'tards that are the target of my barbs. 


ack-ack

[Steel]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?

In short yes.....but you have to watch the usage of the name Poni. The B model is much better in the turn than the D. It will hang with 109s in many areas of flight with a good pilot. The use of flaps and throttle management make all the difference in the world. Only when the fight degrades into a true luftberry do I get worried. Otherwise I dont think the 109 is more dangerous than many other planes in a turn fight. Its the vertical that gets me worried....

Steel

[DarkglamJG52]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?

What Mustang, what 109(G,K)(standard, Rüstsatz)? Check te old war stories from the other side.


http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/karhi/karhinv1.htm

I shot down at least one Mustang (on 4th July 1944) in turning fight. I was hanging behind one, but I could not get enough deflection. Then the pilot made an error: he pulled too much, and stalling, had to loosen his turn. That gave me the chance of getting deflection and shooting him down. It was not impossible to dogfight flying a three-cannon Messerschmitt.

And see that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

Lots of variables.

[Larry]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?

You also have to remember that back then they didn't push the planes like we do. Another thing is we aren't sitting in the plane feeling every movement of the plane. We don't have to endure the 5 1/2Gs we are pulling when fighting like they used to. Lastly we have alot more experience flying are cartoon planes then most of them did flying for their lives.

[BnZs]

Ah, I gotcha.

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?

Well, "out-turning" 109s is actually unimportant per se. War being what it is, one could argue that the Allies did not have access to a broad cross-section of 109s for testing, etc.

However, with P-47 vs. P-51, we have to assume that the opinion of the Allied AND Axis that the latter is the more nimble bird is mistaken...

[BnZs]

And?
Old hare shoots down a Mustang. In this instance, a simple turn fails to solve the problem of something on the six...as we all know in this situation the pursuing plane does not need a great deal of superiority in the turn, in fact it can turn somewhat worse and still get the kill.

And the pilot had to pull too hard and stall his P-51, easy to do because it didn't give much warning of impending stalls, before the 109 weighted down with 3 cannons could pull deflection.

Walter Wolfrum, a Luftwaffe ace with 137 victories, remembered of his encounters with American fighters that "the P-47 wasn't so bad because we could out turn and outclimb it, initially. [...] The P-51 was something else."

[Anaxogoras]

I feel like I always hear about P-51's being able to out-turn 109's in old war stories and such, is it just the altitude the fights occur at in the MA that is making the difference?

There's a lot of things that account for the difference, in order of importance:

1.  Pilot ability.  By the time the P-51 arrived, most of the good German pilots were dead, and the new ones had their training time cut short.

2.  Combat pilots are known to exaggerate the abilities of the aircraft they fly.

3.  Where applicable, gondolas limited the turning performance of the 109.

There's a good video on youtube (of course I can't find it) where a pilot who has flown both the P-51d and a rebuilt 109G compares their performance and says that the 109G turns better, but that the P-51 is faster.

[BnZs]

There's a lot of things that account for the difference, in order of importance:

1.  Pilot ability.  By the time the P-51 arrived, most of the good German pilots were dead, and the new ones had their training time cut short.

2.  Combat pilots are known to exaggerate the abilities of the aircraft they fly.

3.  Where applicable, gondolas limited the turning performance of the 109.

There's a good video on youtube (of course I can't find it) where a pilot who has flown both the P-51d and a rebuilt 109G compares their performance and says that the 109G turns better, but that the P-51 is faster.

There is a huge variability in basic weight amongst various models of the 109G...

While I would be surprised if most variants of the 109 could NOT sustain a smaller minimum turning circle than the P-51 at low alts, the 109 having gotten slow enough to bring both slats and flaps into play, I think the in-game differences are greater than was generally the case in reality.

The stiff-controls of the 109 at IAS approaching 300mph is a factor which could have given Mustangs an initial advantage in turning (considering both pitch and roll control) at combat airspeeds, but this disadvantage does not exist for the 109 in AHII until 400mph IAS, which for the most part is above practical dogfighting air-speeds for prop planes.

[colmbo]

And the pilot had to pull too hard and stall his P-51, easy to do because it didn't give much warning of impending stalls,

Have you flown a Mustang?  It gives a great deal of warning before stall...unless you happen to be asleep...or your stick hand is numb. <G>

[Thias]

/o Columbo

[SgtPappy]

At low low speeds, it doesn't seem to give much warning, but better than the F4U, I'll tell ya that much.

Believe it or not, I always found the Pony to be much more responsive than the F4U whenever i fly it. Perhaps it is because it retains so much speed and builds it up almost, if not, more than easily than the 1-series Hogs. It feels a lot lighter and rolls similarly.

Of course turn radius, it cannot match a Corsair, but when the two planes are not using flaps, the P-51 feels better. Still though, if a K4 seems tough for the Pony, try fighting the Spitfire XIV. It seems to have ALL the advantages of the K4 in a duel yet with better turning! I don't think I've ever been able to take a Spitfire XIV down .. not with the P-51D. Any suggestions?

[BnZs]

Have you flown a Mustang?  It gives a great deal of warning before stall...unless you happen to be asleep...or your stick hand is numb. <G>

You mean the actual bird? No, have you...

I was under the impression that the margin between any sensation warning of the impending stall and the actual stall was razor-thin, due to the laminar flow wing...

All airplanes in AHII give copious stall warning in the form of the horn and the buffet, so not really a factor for us.

[colmbo]

You mean the actual bird? No, have you...

Yes.

I was under the impression that the margin between any sensation warning of the impending stall and the actual stall was razor-thin, due to the laminar flow wing...

Buffet, very noticable, starts a few knots above the stall.  It's probably possible in any airplane to yank the stick back quick enough to minimize the "warning" but not a practicle way to fly.  Any airplane will talk to you if you're willing to listen.  The Mustang gave more warning of the stall than any Cessna I've ever flown.  But if you want to really talk stall buffet try the B-17.  <G>

[SectorNine50]

In short yes.....but you have to watch the usage of the name Poni. The B model is much better in the turn than the D. It will hang with 109s in many areas of flight with a good pilot. The use of flaps and throttle management make all the difference in the world. Only when the fight degrades into a true luftberry do I get worried. Otherwise I dont think the 109 is more dangerous than many other planes in a turn fight. Its the vertical that gets me worried....

Steel

The B model is actually all I fly (I'll venture around randomly from time to time, but the B model has my attention currently) and I still have a tough time with 109's.

Also, I've heard that in real life the zoom climb of the Pony wasn't all that bad, however in this game it seems downright awful, why's that?

[Steel]

    The only time I have problems with a 109 family is when its the 109K4. You are as good as dead if the K4 plays to its strengths. Most dont know the plane very well but watch out if they do. The other 109's can be trouble if you get into a single plane fight. Pure vertical and flat turn he has the advantage so keep it 3D. You have to work flaps like mad and use throttle to pull the plane around. Usually my flaps never stay in more than one position for more than 2-3 seconds. One thing you can never EVER do is flat turn a Poni so use yoyo's or similar manuevers. Stop by the DA and I will show you how I fight 109s...

<S>