Dueling: What shots do you take and what shots do you hold off on?

[grizz441]

pecificaly, Grizz is oblivious (purposedly or not) to Shane's point about ignoring easy shots to actualy win the fight rather than chance the win (and this is something anyone who's flown with Shane in the DA ought to know as 'SOP'). And A8Tool too, apparently.

M00t, the maneuver Shane pulled was setting himself up for a very nice angle on me and advantage.  I'm not oblivious to Shane's point.  His point is hogwash.  His intent was to gain an angles advantage on me with that maneuver not to avoid a ram.  I think all the trainer's already pointed that out.  Why would I ignore a shot on something he is doing with intent.  If I pass that shot, He's going to be snap shotting me 3 seconds later. <scratches head>

[Kazaa]

I made enough for everybody!

[moot]

M00t, the maneuver Shane pulled was setting himself up for a very nice angle on me and advantage.  I'm not oblivious to Shane's point.  His point is hogwash.  His intent was to gain an angles advantage on me with that maneuver not to avoid a ram.  I think all the trainer's already pointed that out. 

It's not hogwash. It's a given that fights end in those circumstances. Lots of us have just chosen to not take that fork in the road so as to keep the fight going. It doesnt matter what anyone else, trainers or not, think of that.

[SlapShot]

Here is a film of the next fight of Shane getting his revenge for my cheap shot.  Is this the same shot that I took?

http://www.speedyshare.com/772890506.html

Then...

Here is the very next fight where Shane decided to shoot me head on again.  I quit after this fight.  Again I ask, is this the same shot that I took?

http://www.speedyshare.com/741967957.html

(All films are very short, don't be bashful to download)

Watched all 3 films ... didn't see an HO by any of those involved.

Film 1 ... looked like Shane was a little lazy on the reversal and got hammered ... at about 2:32 into the film, it looked like Grizz went to external view for a second when Shane got lost in his cockpit frame.

Film 2 ... looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.

Film 3 ... again it looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.

I can see the point that Shane was trying to make ... were you guys there to teach/learn ... or were you there to really "duel" ?

Film 1 seemed like Shane wanted to make the fight last and make the duel more about exercising ACM than to really see who can die the fastest.

After Film 1 and the conversation, it appeared that Shane decided to play the "get the kill quick" game when the shot presents itself ... and in that mode, Grizz felt the sting of the La-7.

I also did notice that Grizz did like to pull nose to nose on the merges after the 1st merge. You can see in films 2 and 3 that Shane took a real high deflection shot ... he probably could have pulled by those and continued the fight for a couple more turns, but like I said before ... it looked like what probably was a teach/learn session turned into a who can kill the quickest.

[A8TOOL]

What I learn most in films from guys like this is throttle management and flap use as pictured above and i never expect to see a ho.  Tactics like these are very useful when fighting 2 or more and sometimes even when it's 1 vs 1 becoming very necessary when enemy bogie's are on the way to ruin your fun and make short work of you. I dare not say I have never used this tactic but there is a time and place for it and I try to keep anger out of the picture.

I understand more fully now what was going on between the two but setting up a ho shot is still a ho shot meant to quickly dispatch your opponent.


Edit: Setting up a ho shot


Shane didn't have to take those shots and it could have lasted a lot longer which probably was the original idea.  My opinions really mean nothing here but like most people, I post them anyway because i like talking about the game  hehehe

[grizz441]

Film 2 ... looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.

Film 3 ... again it looked like Shane decided not to be lazy anymore and dispatched Grizz quite quickly.

I could have easily shot him also.  Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also.  Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor.  That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.

[Shane]

I take pride in dueling honorably, that is very insulting of you to say.  Post a film of me fighting dirty, oh wait, you don't have one. 

(Image removed from quote.)

are you saying that was a merge shot?  if so, you're lying. If not, it's a valid shot per dueling rules.

How about this?

screenie which shows you at 6.5k...  

yes, you dropped down, yes you cut throttle so you wouldn't be too fast, giving the appearance that you were playing fair. What I see is a con 6.5k who merges with who knows how much speed.

here's the film, too:   http://www.speedyshare.com/429963948.html

or how about this one when you were waiting while I finsihed with sko?

edit to fix tag

My point, 5k was pre-vis alt cap.  What were you doing above it at vis?  Doesn't matter what you did *after* vis.  I know we can wander up while typing etc, but when I see my self getting more than 100-200 feet above the cap, i get back down to it asap.

[Shane]

I could have easily shot him also.  Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also.  Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor.  That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.

I realized it was jungle law (but largely didn't act upon it) from the 3rd time *you* took "the shot"... you got about 7-8 kills off that shot. The last two were meant to stick it to you after the 8th one.  You cried and ran away because you don't know how to rollout of a front quarter shot after the merge.

[grizz441]

are you saying that was a merge shot?  if so, you're lying. If not, it's a valid shot per dueling rules.

How about this? (Image removed from quote.)

screenie which shows you at 6.5k... 

yes, you dropped down, yes you cut throttle so you wouldn't be too fast, giving the appearance that you were playing fair. What I see is a con 6.5k who merges with who knows how much speed.

here's the film, too:  http://www.speedyshare.com/429963948.html

or how about this one when you were waiting while I finsihed with SERaider?

IMG]http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr355/swatpeace/grizz6k.jpg[/IMG]

My point, 5k was pre-vis alt cap.  What were you doing above it at vis?  Doesn't matter what you did *after* vis.  I know we can wander up while typing etc, but when I see my self getting more than 100-200 feet above the cap, i get back down to it asap.

???????????????? You just got done fighting sko, I'm 5k from you.  I'm not even engaging you yet.   Wow Shane, you are realllly stretching now.  This is sickening you are calling my dueling integrity into question. 

[Masherbrum]

You go above "established alt", you lose.  

Shane, I'm wanting to do it to learn.   "Nothing to prove" here, just wanna work on some things.  

  

[Shane]

???????????????? You just got done fighting sko, I'm 5k from you.  I'm not even engaging you yet.   Wow Shane, you are realllly stretching now.  This is sickening you are calling my dueling integrity into question. 

bla bla bla....  let your integrity answer this question:  Was the pre-vis merge alt cap agreed upon to be 5K?  I can understand 5.1, 5.2... but a whole 1k+ above the agreed upon alt?  Am I claiming you deliebrately used that advantage?  No.  Am I pointing out that your integrity if full of holes?  Hmmm, maybe?

[grizz441]

bla bla bla....  let your integrity answer this question:  Was the pre-vis merge alt cap agreed upon to be 5K?  I can understand 5.1, 5.2... but a whole 1k+ above the agreed upon alt?  Am I claiming you deliebrately used that advantage?  No.  Am I pointing out that your integrity if full of holes?  Hmmm, maybe?

What are you claiming then.  I was waiting for a fight to finish 5k out not paying attention to my alt.  Then I chopped throttle descended when I realized it was my turn to fight.  Asked if you were ready, and came in with the same E as you.  My integrity has no holes in it.  Nice house of cards Shane.  It looks pretty sturdy from the right angle.

[SlapShot]

I could have easily shot him also.  Film 3 I could have got guns on him sooner than he did on me and "dispatched" him quickly also.  Why would I want to HO him, I fight with honor.  That's when I realized the fights had resorted to jungle law and I quit.

Which goes to his original point ... in Film 1 he more than likely could have turned back into you on his zoom and gone nose to nose and he chose not to.

In my seven years of flying this sim, I have fought Shane on numerous occasions ... more in the MA than in the DA ... and I can say with all certainty that when the fight is "on" ... he will not leave himself open for such an easy guns solution that was presented in Film 1 ... granted he fell into the "rope" ... bailed to the deck, but that lazy upward zoom, I can only surmise that he was truly trying to "keep the fight going".

In retrospect ... I probably would have taken that shot too (in Film 1), but when he came over text and commented ... I probably would have apologized and at that point agreed to bypass those types of shots ... and then the night could have continued amicably.

[Shane]

What are you claiming then.  I was waiting for a fight to finish 5k out not paying attention to my alt.  Then I chopped throttle descended when I realized it was my turn to fight.  Asked if you were ready, and came in with the same E as you.  My integrity has no holes in it.  Nice house of cards Shane.  It looks pretty sturdy from the right angle.

and yeah slap, think I give the same easy kill about 8 times?  and each time remark "I gave you those, you know?"

it would have been in my interest to keep nosing into him (i'm still far from stalling) knowing full well he wouldn't take the HO and have been even closer to that snapshot as he went under me, or rolled over onto him if he went above or to the side.  That's one of my trademark kills... the snapshot as the higher con comes back under me w/o enough speed/control to get his own ho shot out of it.

no no.. don't spin.  answer.  with your integrity.  Were you substantially above the agreed upon alt cap at vis?  Yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.

[moot]

In his defense (gasp), 1.5k isnt hard to do when you're not paying attention.. And grizz not quite paying attention aint surprising   I've done it too, like he describes, just once, and had Whels (or a similar name) fly off the handle that I was a cheater and that he 'knew he couldnt trust me / expect so much from me'.