Called Police 2nd time in a week

[MORAY37]

Yeah I know. I kinda went off on a tanget there. I guess I'm saying we shouldn't even have to ask that question because it shoudn't be an issue. The fact that it is, is a product of our society getting soft on crime. Since when did people start thinking it's better to punish the victim of a crime for defending himself and his property vs the criminal who created the entire chain of events in the first place?

It just makes no sense to me, and the fact that the courts allow stuff like that to happen blows me away.

Hornet, the difference being the value of life placed over all else.  That is a value this nation holds dear, both to the betterment and the detriment of its' citizenry. You may not agree, but there is a gradation in your response to a situation, in the law. 

Killing an intruder may seem like a cut and dry matter to you.  Yet, there are many shades of gray that can be applied to that.  Killing an intruder, armed, who is actively intent on harming you and yours is one side.  Killing an unarmed intruder who is a stupid kid on a dare from his friends, or an out of work parent just trying to feed their children is the other.  The law must be taken into account in all matters, not just the ones you see as pertinent.

[Hornet33]

Hornet, the difference being the value of life placed over all else.  That is a value this nation holds dear, both to the betterment and the detriment of its' citizenry. You may not agree, but there is a gradation in your response to a situation, in the law. 

Killing an intruder may seem like a cut and dry matter to you.  Yet, there are many shades of gray that can be applied to that.  Killing an intruder, armed, who is actively intent on harming you and yours is one side.  Killing an unarmed intruder who is a stupid kid on a dare from his friends, or an out of work parent just trying to feed their children is the other.  The law must be taken into account in all matters, not just the ones you see as pertinent.

Whatever happend to respecting others property and home? There is no shade of grey. My home, you may not enter it unless I allow you to enter it. That's cut and dry as it should be. There is NO legitimate reason for anyone to enter someone else's home without permission.

The armed intruder that wants to chop me up into little peices, the dumb kid who breaks in on a dare, or the out of work parent just looking for some food, NONE of them have a right to enter my home, and NONE of them have anything to fear from me until the enter my home. At that point they are all the same, uninvited criminals who I don't know, and have no idea of their intentions. They are all the same.

In a home invasion situation you do not have the time to figure out, "Gee I wonder what this person is really after? Do they want to hurt me, or are they just after my TV?" Doesn't matter because they shouldn't be there in the first place. The FACT that they broke into my home PROVES that they have no value for my life at all, so why should I place a value on theirs?

Shades of grey is nothing but a copout. It's right or wrong. It's wrong to break into someones home for any reason, and the owner has the right to stop you with any means available.

[MORAY37]

If u read my paranoic comments earlier, I totaly agree with you, but your question should be "I am ready to spend the next 10 years in and out of court, and spend all my savings for a TV".

Schutzhund ... I know Schutzhund 
(Image removed from quote.)(Image removed from quote.)
Really amazing what u can achieve with it. How old was ur dog when u started? Do u think that 2 years old is too late?

Mine was just under her first year when she started basic obedience. (Begleithund certified at (BH) at 16 months) She certified SchH III at 5 years old. She's 7 now.  (and perfectly content to lie on the couch)

 My mother swears that "real" protection shouldn't be started until after 2 years old, and she's been doing it for a long time.  Training when the dog is young can ruin its' confidence, creating an unmanageable wreck.   Play introduction with burlap started when my girl was still a young pup.  It should be mentioned that each dog has a different personality and adaptation to the work.  If you're into Shutzhund, you'll also know to check their hips for dysplasia.  Also, check into your pedigree and see if your dog came from German broodstock.  They have been much more successful at eliminating issues with maturing GSD's due to a better approach at the genomics of the breed.

It depends on where you are with your dog, but I would maintain that 2 years old is a great time to work out his/her limits and be able to train well. Just don't get in with those trainers that use shock systems (horrible way to train and ruin a good dog, who associates you with "PAIN" other than "REWARD".  Find a good trainer that uses positive behavioral reinforcement, you'll be much happier with the result! ( a protective, loving, slobbering bullet you can call back)

[MORAY37]

Shades of grey is nothing but a copout. It's right or wrong. It's wrong to break into someones home for any reason, and the owner has the right to stop you with any means available.

It's also wrong to purposefully cause an accident and endanger my family's safety.  Are you inferring it is therefore applicable that insurance defrauders be stopped using guided missiles? What about speeders? 

 I therefore maintain it is inherently necessary to ascertain intent prior to use of force.  This is why my protection trained dog is my first line of defense. Intent is ascertained the second the intruder takes another step forward, and not at the price of my or my "human" family's safety.

[Elfie]

Getback, unless you're really willing to kill someone, don't get a handgun.

I'd suggest something to scare them off, and if the time comes where you actually HAVE to shoot them, wound them (which should be your very very VERY last resort.)

I'd get a cheap shotgun, .410, or 20 gauge. Get the 8 dove shot, so it's little BBs, so if you shoot, it'll either not hurt them really bad, or they'll be far enough away for you to not hit them.

Pistols are very dangerous, and it's very easy to shoot yourself with one. If I ever got a pistol, I would never load it unless I decided I had to. Even though at a certain distance, you're gonna kill, shotguns are much safer.

Small caliber rifle may be good too.

Lawls.

If you shoot someone inside a home with a shotgun, it's not going to make any difference what gauge the shotgun is, or what size shot was in the shell, the person on the receiving end is going to be in a world of hurt.

[sntslilhlpr6601]

People can defend their families, themselves and their property with whatever reasonable force they feel like.  It's idiotic to assume every bullet will go through several brick walls, intact, and strike lil Timmy while he sleeps in his bed.

You're right, people can defend themselves however they like. All I'm saying is it's not a good idea to use the rifle when you have a shotgun and a handgun right beside it.

And I did not say every freakin' bullet would penetrate and kill someone. The mere possibility of it warrants using a different weapon.

[SmokinLoon]

Sorry but thats a lie. The average Cambodian did not own, nor could not afford to own a firearm. It was a full fledged civil war. My wife is Cambodian, her father was an officer in the Cambodian armed forces and killed during the war.

Given you f*****d this fact up so significantly I'm guessing you dug these 'facts' out of a pro-gun-to-the-point-of-being-a-nutcase email that does that rounds every so often. Either that or made things up. I'm guessing the other facts about Kenyan (I think you mean Zimbabwe) farmers and the jews in Nazi germany are total fantasy too.

So if you feel the need to keep your right to defend yourself in your home do it without lies, thanks.

Oh, I didnt make any of them up.  I did more than one research project in college on gun control for my poli sci courses.  I didnt gather any of my info from popilist sources like most, I actually dug.  Just becasue your wife is Cambodian doesnt make her or you and expert on the matter, not that I am either, however I remember my facts and calling me a liar is a bit drastic.  Want to call my bluff?  Are you going to apologize when I post the sources?  Do you want to be made an even bigger fool that the one you just made of yourself?  There are three things in this world I am quite well versed in: Small arms, gun control, and  history (WWII, Vietnam, and Asian Colonial history to be exact).  

Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge would have shot anyone on sight if they had a firearm of any sort.  Any sort of firearm, ammo, non approved books, anything western, etc.  There was to be no resistance of questioning of the Khmer Rouge.  It took Vietnam to save Cambodia since the people couldnt do it themselves.  Over 1 million died.  That was only 30 years ago.  Not long enough to brush it off, imo.

Read up.  Check into the other events I mentioned as well and hold fast your tongue.      
  

[SmokinLoon]

double post.

[Hornet33]

Your analogy is not even comparable.

I KNOW when I leave my home, get behind the wheel of my truck, and head on down a public road that I have to deal with everyone else on the road and that there is a very real risk that I could be involved in an accident. I'm prepared for it by having insurance on my truck to protect it, myself, and others if I am involved in an accident. If it should happen the police will find out who was at fault and the courts will deal with it acourdingly.

When I am sitting inside my home I have every right to expect that no one will enter my home without my permission and that I'm not at risk to everyone else out there. To do so, by steping one foot inside my home, is against the law. Someone cannot accidentaly break into my home. They have the intent to do so before it happens. Once they are in, intent to commit a crime is proven, and I don't know what else they intend to do, and I'm not going to be one to take chances trying to find out. I shouldn't have to, since they shouldn't be there in the first place.

My home is not a public avenue for anyone to come strolling through whenever they please and I have to first detirmine what their intentions are. My home is my private property where I have EVERY reasonable expectation that no one will enter.

[SmokinLoon]

Getback, unless you're really willing to kill someone, don't get a handgun.

I'd suggest something to scare them off, and if the time comes where you actually HAVE to shoot them, wound them (which should be your very very VERY last resort.)

I'd get a cheap shotgun, .410, or 20 gauge. Get the 8 dove shot, so it's little BBs, so if you shoot, it'll either not hurt them really bad, or they'll be far enough away for you to not hit them.

Pistols are very dangerous, and it's very easy to shoot yourself with one. If I ever got a pistol, I would never load it unless I decided I had to. Even though at a certain distance, you're gonna kill, shotguns are much safer.

Small caliber rifle may be good too.

Do NOT shoot to wound, ever.  EVER.

Small caliber rifle?  As in 5.56 NATO?  or as in .22LR rimfire?

Loaded guns are not the problem, not following the 10 rules of firearms safety is.  

[Elfie]

A little side story, this happened not once but twice to two different friends in the course of about 2 months. The story is basically a long night out partying ends with a ride home from a DD that doesn't really know where person in question lives. This person gets dropped off a few houses away from their own house, but since they all look the same, and this person is extremely drunk, they go to the wrong house. In one situation the door was un-locked, my friend stumbles inside and passes out on the couch. The next morning the owners get a nice surprise but its all laughs as they all knew eachother anyway. However for another friend the story was not so nice. The front door was locked so he went around to a back sliding door which is always open. This guy happens to be a big intimidating looking type and starts banging on the door to his friends to let him in. Well the elderly man living their was not impressed and came to that part of the house with his shotgun, except rather than confronting the drunk he stayed covered in the shadows near the back of the room, at the ready with his gun. Luckily he called the cops also. Eventually my friend busted open the door and pretty much fell into the house at the same time the cops arrived. If the cops didn't get their this guy would have probably been shot.

Sure my drunk friend was in the wrong, he was at the wrong house. However would his mistakes justified him being shot? He's a great guy that doesn't even drink that much, he just got out of control drunk this one time (who hasn't?). This is just one situation with many variables that goes to show that blowing someone away as soon as they enter your house might not be the best mentality. This type of arming and preparing yourself for a full scale invasion may not be the healthiest mentality for you OR your neighbors!

This.....is exactly what Hornet was talking about. If that old man had shot your drunk friend, the old man would have been in the right. Your friend is the one that started the chain of events that led to him breaking into that old couples home. Your friend, not the old man, would have been to blame if any gunfire had erupted that night. Why? Because he had no business being where he was, and it was HIS choices that led to him being at the back door of the wrong house in the middle of the night. My sympathies would have been with the old man for having had to defend himself, not with some drunk that couldn't find his way home.

[DJ111]

You're right, people can defend themselves however they like. All I'm saying is it's not a good idea to use the rifle when you have a shotgun and a handgun right beside it.

And I did not say every freakin' bullet would penetrate and kill someone. The mere possibility of it warrants using a different weapon.

Using a rifle to defend your home is idiotic. I don't care how proficient you are with it, there's no way to stop those rounds from penetrating and killing your neighbor.

 

YOU may not think it's a good idea, I'm sure others think it's a very good idea. Using a shotgun in my home is option #3. After my AR15 with JHP's, and Sig P226 9mm with Winchester whitebox rounds, THEN its my Mossberg 500. Whichever firearm I get to first. (The Sig is under the table beside my bed)

My wife would be PISSED if I peppered the walls with buck shot...


Anyway, not every gun owner in America owns a rifle, a shotgun and handgun...

[Elfie]

My wife would be PISSED if I peppered the walls with buck shot...

She'd get over it. 

[DJ111]

Well.... 

[Vulcan]

Oh, I didnt make any of them up.  I did more than one research project in college on gun control for my poli sci courses.  I didnt gather any of my info from popilist sources like most, I actually dug.  Just becasue your wife is Cambodian doesnt make her or you and expert on the matter, not that I am either, however I remember my facts and calling me a liar is a bit drastic.  Want to call my bluff?  Are you going to apologize when I post the sources?  Do you want to be made an even bigger fool that the one you just made of yourself?  There are three things in this world I am quite well versed in: Small arms, gun control, and  history (WWII, Vietnam, and Asian Colonial history to be exact).  

Pol Pot/Khmer Rouge would have shot anyone on sight if they had a firearm of any sort.  Any sort of firearm, ammo, non approved books, anything western, etc.  There was to be no resistance of questioning of the Khmer Rouge.  It took Vietnam to save Cambodia since the people couldnt do it themselves.  Over 1 million died.  That was only 30 years ago.  Not long enough to brush it off, imo.

Read up.  Check into the other events I mentioned as well and hold fast your tongue.      

Post your sources, I've been to Cambodia, I have a large extended family of Cambodians. I've also met Hang Ngor on several occasions, had dinner with him quite a bit. I've had the privilege of hearing quite a bit about the war. Post your sources please.

As for the rest, well here's a start: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcnazimyth.html