Stats, ENY, and Perks

[Anaxogoras]

What is the ENY system for in your opinion? I'm not sure if your view on that matter is the same as HTC's or many other player's...

I think before getting an agreement about specific ENY numbers and how they are derived, we should have an agreemant about what ENY is for in the first place

To be honest, I don't really know other than what's obvious.  If HTC provided some criteria for how they came up with the numbers, then things would be different.  For now, all I can say is that ENY is for determining how many perks you get and which aircraft are restricted when there's a numbers imbalance.

[Lusche]

For now, all I can say is that ENY is for determining how many perks you get and which aircraft are restricted when there's a numbers imbalance.

  It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.

But should't the number the perks you get when flying a certain plane depend mostly on capability of the plane? i.e. killing the "better" plane in a "worse" one should get you more points and vice versa?

[Ack-Ack]

There are many planes out there that aren't used much, but have a very small number of very dedicated and/or good stick artificially boosting a plane's overall K/D. See the P-38J, which has the same performance as the P-38L. But a much higher K/D

A good example would be the P-38J's stats for the MW arena.  The P-38J has a total of 4060 kills, the most of any fighter in MW.  One would think that with it being the #1 killer, it's also the most popular ride until one looks more into the stats and sees that one player is responsible for a little over 7% of those total kills.


ack-ack

[Boozeman]

K/D alone as the single determining factor for ENY is as flawed as pure "usage".
There are many planes out there that aren't used much, but have a very small number of very dedicated and/or good stick artificially boosting a plane's overall K/D. See the P-38J, which has the same performance as the P-38L. But a much higher K/D

Or see the TA 152 you are giving as an example. A single player can boost the K/D significantly and thus "wrek" the ENY (and perk point gain) for other players.
In Dezember, the 152 had a K/D of 1.5. Substract Snailmans stats from this, and the K/D suddenly drops to 1.34 
Two players alone (Snailman & a1a1a1) are having more than 20% of all Ta152h kills, without them the K/D drops to 1.24 When M00t comes back, it will be even more drastic.
In my opinion, a single player shouldn't have such an impact on ENY that would result from this.

I see your point, but then I might ask: why shouldn't have single players an impact on ENY, baleit they are puting in the efforts and also the results?

The fact that there is some "stat boosting" going on by some dedicated players, is just as important to ENY calculation, as if they were not. You cannot count them out of the equation, bacuse they are adding thier very own share to it. So, if you and a1a1a1 are responsible 20% of the 152 kills, then you are also responsible for a making the 152 a more dangerous plane on average.

So let us say we have a P-38J encountering a Spit16. At MA alts, for all intents and purposes the Spit16 is as fast, turns alot better, climbs alot better, and rolls alot better. But the P-38J apparently has had a higher k/d lately, almost certainly because it is flown mostly by experts. Thus, you argue it should have a lower ENY. So you must think the guy in what amounts to the double-inferior aircraft (P-38) should get *fewer* perk points if he shoots down the Spit16 than a Spit16 driver should get for winning a fight while flying a double-superior aircraft. Madness!

Well, if you think about it, it isn't so mad at all. As a simplyfied matter of LWA facts, as it stands now, and also backed up by the K/D ratio, a Spit16 is nowhere near that much of a threat on average as a P-38J. The reason, as you pointed out is:

P-38J = on average, highly skilled player that can get 120% out of his ride and flying smart = extremely dangerous.
Spit16 = on average, 2-weeker or dweeb, stall limiter enabled, no idea of his rides capabillities, dumb flying = easy meat.   

Of course, this system fails, when, like you pointed out again, 2 players of the same skill level duke it out. But this would be a very rare occurance in the arenas and thus just a minor drawback overall.

[Lusche]

I see your point, but then I might ask: why shouldn't have single players an impact on ENY, baleit they are puting in the efforts and also the results?

Because it's my belief a planes ENY should  reflect the capabilities of that plane rather than the fact who's flying it.
When I would take the Hurri I as my main ride in LW arena again (I already did that one tour in the past), everyone else "daring" to fly this definitely outclassed EW ride would suddenly gain significantly less perks. And only because I would have skewed the Hurri's K/D.
Sounds hardly like a fair deal to me.

[Boozeman]

Because it's my belief a planes ENY should  reflect the capabilities of that plane rather than the fact who's flying it.
When I would take the Hurri I as my main ride in LW arena again (I already did that one tour in the past), everyone else "daring" to fly this definitely outclassed EW ride would suddenly gain significantly less perks. And only because I would have skewed the Hurri's K/D.
Sounds hardly like a fair deal to me.

I see your point again, but I doubt that it will have such a large impact. I am also guilty of skewing a certain planes K/D for one tour (LWA tour 97, C202).
With my effort, the actual K/D was 0,6, without it would have been 0,48. So under a strict K/D ENY system (if calculated on a tour basis though), I would have made other 202 drivers earn 20% less perks for a tour. Honestly, if a sortie brings 10 instead of 12 perks for instance, who cares, really?

And I also doubt that deliberatly skewing certain plane K/Ds will become a popular sport. To be somewhat effective, it really needs a unpopular plane (and they are for a reason) and a lot of effort over and over again. Who wants to do that on a regular basis? And if someone would do that, would't that plane be all of a sudden much more dangerous on average than before?     

[BnZs]

And if someone would do that, would't that plane be all of a sudden much more dangerous on average than before?     

No, the PLANE will be just the same as it was before, the PILOT will be the variable. One again, I see no reason why it is anything but lunacy that you should get less perks for killing in an inferior plane simply because it is flown well by some die hard vets, more perks for killing in a superior plane that is flown poorly by noobs.

[BnZs]

BnZs, it's a mistake to assume that an ENY system must represent what is "better."  It might also be a mistake to assume that representing what is "better" with ENY is even desirable.

Anax, the way ENY is used in the MAs is to determine how many perk points you earn for killing a given plane with your plane, and to determine which planes get taken away first to handicap the high-numbers team for side-balancing purposes. So yes, the way ENY numbers are actually used means determining which plane is better is critical.

Why don't you drop popularity entirely in your results Anax, and add kills/time in with your statistics?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The plane does not change, only the pilot. Why allow a pilot or group of pilots to change the status of the plane? Yes, HTC could almost certainly change the ENY system for the better. But attempting to make ENY a constantly changing number according to who is flying that plane at that point in time is ludicrous and pointless. There is nothing at all to be gained by it.

[Anaxogoras]

But should't the number the perks you get when flying a certain plane depend mostly on capability of the plane? i.e. killing the "better" plane in a "worse" one should get you more points and vice versa?

The burden of proof is on you here.   I'm not saying that ENY reflecting which plane is best is a bad idea or wrong in intention, but arguing that it must be wrong is a waste of time.  All I'm saying is there's lots of things that ENY could be used for; perhaps there are criteria we haven't even thought of yet that are more easy to determine and implement than "which is better," and which are useful for our purposes.

Why don't you drop popularity entirely in your results Anax, and add kills/time in with your statistics?

That would help planes like the P-51 and Spitfire 16, but the P-38J and 152 would suffer.  So far as I can see, there isn't a way to see all of the personal stats we can view sorted by plane type.  Is there?

[Shuffler]

I'm just glad to see our bombers listed with your fighters.... gives me goose bumps I tell ya.

I fly for the lowest number team so I don't see what all the fuss is about eny.

A good example would be the P-38J's stats for the MW arena.  The P-38J has a total of 4060 kills, the most of any fighter in MW.  One would think that with it being the #1 killer, it's also the most popular ride until one looks more into the stats and sees that one player is responsible for a little over 7% of those total kills.
ack-ack

..... and another is responsible for just under 12%.

[Boozeman]

One again, I see no reason why it is anything but lunacy that you should get less perks for killing in an inferior plane simply because it is flown well by some die hard vets, more perks for killing in a superior plane that is flown poorly by noobs.

Because if it is flown poorly, it wont get a kill despite being superior. And if the inferior plane is flown very well, it will get the kill.
Its the very same reason why the "inferior" plane (38-J) kills the "superior" plane (Spit16) at a rate of 1,78:1 in LWA tour 107.   

[BnZs]

Because if it is flown poorly, it wont get a kill despite being superior. And if the inferior plane is flown very well, it will get the kill.
Its the very same reason why the "inferior" plane (38-J) kills the "superior" plane (Spit16) at a rate of 1,78:1 in LWA tour 107.   

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with anything? Quite simply, this idea punishes *anyone* who flies the P-38J simply because many good pilots are putting up numbers in it, and rewards *anyone* flying a Spit16 because it is flown by many inexperienced players. I can't believe you think that on given sortie one should earn less perks for flying a P-38J, simply because so many good sticks fly it. And let it be known, the main reason it gets flown instead of the L is because it has cooler skins!!!

And to really drop the silly penny in the stupid machine, one could fly the slightly superior P-38L and earn many more perks.

[Boozeman]

I'm sorry, what does that have to do with anything? Quite simply, this idea punishes *anyone* who flies the P-38J simply because many good pilots are putting up numbers in it, and rewards *anyone* flying a Spit16 because it is flown by many inexperienced players. I can't believe you think that on given sortie one should earn less perks for flying a P-38J, simply because so many good sticks fly it. And let it be known, the main reason it gets flown instead of the L is because it has cooler skins!!!

And to really drop the silly penny in the stupid machine, one could fly the slightly superior P-38L and earn many more perks.

The problem with your way of thinking is that you try to prove that it fails in terms of a certain single sortie approach (which it does, but more on it later) while I think it will work on a whole, thousands and thousands of different sorties considered.

Lets stick for the P-38J / Spit16 comparison.

You think the strict K/D ratio would reward pilots flying the 16 and punish those who fly the -J. And yes, you are right, ist does. So why is this ok?
As you already stated many good pilots push the J up the ladder, while many bad pilots pull the 16 down. This is the very standard of the LWAs and I think on one can deny this. So, should the experienced pilot in the J (arena standard) get many many extra perks for beating up a noob or a poor pilot in the 16 (also arena standard)? I say no, because it's easy and easy kills should not be rewarded. Should the bad 16 driver get lot of perks for killing a good stick in a J ? Definately! Simply because if he manages to do so, it must have been a hell of and effort, or the 38 driver screwd up - in both cases, well deserved perkies.

I can see you now arguing what would happen if 2 similary skilled pilots (non arena standard) have a go. Then most likely the Spit will be the winner and gets massive perks for a easy kill. Yes this will happen once in a while, but not on the vast majority of encounters, where the skill levels differ widely. So while it may fail in the smallest possible event, it will still work well as a whole. 

But, lets say, for some strange and very unlikley reason, all of a sudden, only similar skilled players fly both the 16 and the J - then the sheer beauty of K/D strikes yet again: It balances itself all the time.

In a situation like above, the Js K/D ratio will go down just as quickly as the 16s will go up, reversing the situation. Now the superior plane has the lower ENY, just as you think it should have.



     

[BnZs]

So, should the experienced pilot in the J (arena standard) get many many extra perks for beating up a noob or a poor pilot in the 16 (also arena standard)? I say no, because it's easy and easy kills should not be rewarded. Should the bad 16 driver get lot of perks for killing a good stick in a J ? Definately! Simply because if he manages to do so, it must have been a hell of and effort, or the 38 driver screwd up - in both cases, well deserved perkies.

On the contrary, the J driver should certainly should be awarded many extra perks. The skill to defeat a superior weapon should be rewarded. It is impossible to say whether a specific encounter will involve a skilled 38J stick against a noob in a Spit16 or vis versa, whether it will be a fair fight or not. The only known in the equation is the planes themselves.

Here are the results: I don't think the SAPP'ers will quit flying their Js, so k/d would stay high. ENY numbers would punish P-38 usage even more than the difficulty of airframe itself does.  Everybody else in the MA has even less reason to fly a P-38J, and more reason to stick with easier planes. Every trainer-type ride will continue to have a high ENY number artificially put upon it by noobs dying in it. So instead of perk farming in C205s and the like, experienced sticks will now be perk farming in Spit16s and La-7s. Well, you know, that is if they have no shame whatsoever.