Author Topic: P-40 with a Merlin ?  (Read 6990 times)

Offline awrabbit

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 06:17:08 PM »
From what I understand the performance difference is not much different 5 mph and a bit more alt. 

I would think that it would have been much improved if was mated with the uber Merlin.   from looking around on the net it seems that the merlin was neutered missing its two stage supercharger.

Also why did they run such low compression  in those engines ? we had the high octane fuel just by bumping the compression up a few points the engines would have made much more power. 10.5.1 to 13.5.1 the higher number would take atvantage of the higher octane fuel.

 Heck, with the compression upped just a bit they could of added 500 to 700 hp and still be with in a safe range to keep them durable as well as perform much more consistant.
  Blowers and Turbos make cylinder pressures much more touchy (harder to tune and much harder on parts due to heat/stress.   I have seen blowers lift the heads off from engines and also fracture cylinders, as well blow the top ring lands completly off the tops of the pistons.  if they had wanted they could have then used the superchargers at very low boost ranges for even more output.  But, I am getting off topic about the P-40 and on to the potential of the engines that was used in the air plane.  (Strega just popped into my head but that little merlin is hopped up to to the edge of being a bomb.
 I am not thinking nowhere near the kind of power those guys are making it is way too on the edge ! )

But, thinking about the what ifs' wonder how it would have been with the hair dryer( the turbo charger ) on the allison? Or, it had the same two stage merlin as the 51 ?

I would speculate to say that it would have been like a F6F or a Hurri ?  the air frame appeared to be pretty sound for the most part.

Would kinda cool to see what a bubble canopy on the P-40 and the lines cleaned up a bit would look like.   Perhaps one of the many artists here on the boards could draw one like that.

Rabbit
Rabbit

Offline llama

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 07:01:09 PM »
That would be the P-40-Q prototype. Actually, there were 4 different -Q's, but one had the bubble canopy and cleaned up fuselage. I have a book with some photos, but I have found these images online that are comparable:





And here's a nice shot from Wikipedia: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:P-40Q.jpg


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2009, 07:07:36 PM »
It is still common practice when seeking the maximum horsepower to run a lower compression ration and more boost. These days, 7:1 or 8:1 is what we call low. They weren't too far off back then. Ever look closely at an Allison V-1710 engine? Dual overhead camshafts, roller rockers, 4 valves per cylinder, forged pistons, forged rods, forged crank, dual spark plugs in each cylinder, not bad for an engine designed to move blimps around in the thirties. The later Allisons did have slightly higher compression.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Angus

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2009, 05:31:21 AM »
So, a Merlin powered P-40 vs a Allison powered P-40 there and then, side by side, performance comparison?
Out of memory, they started sucking above 15K and were therefore applied more in the ground roles, and I do recall that Hurricanes (Yes) were used as escort!
So, was the Merlin clapped in for giving them at least a decent performance at 20K or better ROC, or what? why?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline whels

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2009, 04:03:14 PM »
The P-40Q was an experimental project which attempted to produce a really modern fighter out of the existing P-40. The modifications were in fact so drastic that there was very little in common with earlier P-40 versions.

Two P-40Ks (serial numbers 42-9987 and 42-45722) and one P-40N (serial number 43-24571) were extensively modified with revised cooling systems, two-stage superchargers, and structural changes which markedly altered their appearance. The project was assigned the designation XP-40Q.

The first XP-40Q was P-40K-10-CU ser no 42-9987 fitted with a new cooling system, a longer nose, and a four-bladed propeller. The radiators were moved into an under-fuselage position, with intakes between the undercarriage legs.

The most prominent XP-40Q feature, used on 42-45722 and 43-24571, was the cutting down of the rear fuselage and the addition of a bubble canopy as on the "XP-40N". Later the wingtips were clipped. The result was an aircraft which bore almost no resemblance whatsoever to its parent P-40 line. The V-1710-121 engine was fitted with water injection, resulting in a power of 1425 hp. Speed increased to 422 mph at 20,500 feet, making it the fastest of all the P-40s. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 4.8 minutes, and service ceiling was 39,000 feet. Four 0.5-inch machine guns were carried by the prototypes. Wingspan was 35 feet 3 inches (after clipping), and length was 35 feet 4 inches (2 feet longer than the P-40N).

The proposed production models of the P-40Q were to have carried either six 0.50-inch machine guns or four 20-mm cannon, but the XP-40Q was still inferior to contemporary production Mustangs and Thunderbolts, and development was therefore abandoned. Consequently, the production life of the P-40 ended with the N version.

The second XP-40Q was briefly used for postwar air racing. Registered NX300B, the second XP-40Q was an unauthorized starter in the 1947 Thompson Trophy race. It was in fourth place when it caught fire and had to drop out of the race.


Offline Baumer

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2009, 04:48:44 PM »
I've been doing some research on the P-40L (Merlin and less weight) which the 332nd flew in North Africa. As far as performance the L was not much faster than the previous versions (5mph or so). However, the L only had 4 .50's and they removed about 200 lbs of armor from around the engine so it was much more maneuverable. The standing orders from the 33rd Fighter Group (witch the 332nd was initially part of) was to turn into the enemy and keep them turning. At medium to low altitude, the P-40L would easily out turn the Fw190s, Bf109F's and G's (from Bucholtz "332nd Fighter Group") When any P-40L tried to run they were easy targets, as the Germans were much faster. 
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Offline awrabbit

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2009, 09:02:10 PM »
Very interesting information about the P-40 indeed. 

I think the Q model looks great ! too bad it get to that point of development till the very last or, the P-40 would have played a much more significant roll in the war other than being fighter to fly because nothing else was available.
Rabbit

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2009, 03:14:50 PM »
Me thinks the P40 platform would have lived longer, regardless of the P51/P47, if the politics would not have been involved.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Treize69

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2009, 03:19:53 PM »
P-40 probably wouldn't have lived as long as it did had politics not been involved. Despite all their problems, Curtis had some good lobbyists.
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Offline WWhiskey

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Re: P-40 with a Merlin ?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2009, 03:35:14 PM »
It is still common practice when seeking the maximum horsepower to run a lower compression ration and more boost. These days, 7:1 or 8:1 is what we call low. They weren't too far off back then. Ever look closely at an Allison V-1710 engine? Dual overhead camshafts, roller rockers, 4 valves per cylinder, forged pistons, forged rods, forged crank, dual spark plugs in each cylinder, not bad for an engine designed to move blimps around in the thirties. The later Allisons did have slightly higher compression.


we used to run an Allison powered 4X4 pulling truck,  dual mags as well, external 4 cylinder blower ( not pictured) and the front gear driven one,   ours coughed one time in California ( one mag drive broke)   spit out both drivelines about halfway down the track 1/4 inch sidewall tubing, looked like a crumbled up drinking straw

 sorry but i don't have any good pictures on line of this truck yet !
Flying since tour 71.