Author Topic: Bomber Gunners a WAY too Uber in AH (Read 1090 times)

Sparks · « **Reply #45 on:** November 16, 2000, 02:19:00 PM »

<door opens slightly... unidentified hand tosses in BBS grenade with message attached ... Kette reads message.. "Kette - tell them whats wrong with F4U-1C cannons" ... door slams and sound of running feet>

hehehe
GDR

KetteJG26 · « **Reply #46 on:** November 16, 2000, 03:56:00 PM »

Eskimo..
My first post states that B-17 gunners claimed alot of German aircraft destoryed m8. They should have told the Germans that because examining the actual losses after the war it wasn't true. Gunners in the Schwienfurt raid claimed more german fighters than were even present. Because the 8th AF let those claims stand to boost morale there is alot of misinformation out there. That's why I like Don Caldwell's book. He list's the claimed and the actual losses from both sides. Early war the Luftwaffe overclaimed alot but by midwar the RLM was fairly accurate. The RAF grossly overclaimed the whole war and the USAAF was hit and miss. The RLM made mistakes but with a average of a year long investigation into each claim and the fact they crossed referenced intelligence assest's with pilot statements as well as physical evidience they were the most accurate.
I wasn't talking down to anyone...HOW THE HELL CAN YOU TELL MY STATE OF MIND FROM ONE POST? If you already know the information be secure in yourself and assume it was put there to educate those not as well informed as yourself.
A side attack was not Luftwaffe tactics m8. It is not the smartest attack the fighter can make at all. Sure it happenend.
In a side attack the advantage would lay with gunner. He is looking at a target coming straight at him with very little deflection while the fighter is facing a 90 degree deflection. The relative wind would be full value for both.

That dispersion of bullets over a wide cone you keep toting as an advantage is not m8. Sure you might get lucky and put one bullet into a vital location and bring the target down but not likely. If that was the case why did they send your father-in-law to gunnery training? Just teach em to spray and pray! Having been under hostile myself its real easy to tell if the enemy is just shooting your direction. Suppressive fire isn't the number of bullets thrown downrange. Its the first time someone looks out from cover and gets their head blown off. All those around em say "F--K THAT!!" and hunker down not even looking. A wide dispersion might scare the enemy but it won't bring down many planes.

Rickenbacker · « **Reply #47 on:** November 16, 2000, 04:52:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by KetteJG26:
The gunners are way too accurate.

So what do you suggest? Take away peoples' accounts if they too high a gunnery percentage in bombers?

You do know that all those "too accurate" gunners are real people, don't you?

The problem isn't the bomber modelling, but rather the gunnery model. Yes, in the real war, bomber gunners probably didn't hit toejam, and didn't kill anywhere near as many fighters as were claimed. In AH though, we have a gunnery system that makes long distance kills ridiculously easy (as in any game that's been released to date), and that's why bomber gunners kill you in your fighter if you make the slightest mistake.

Real life tactics still work, gang up on a target, and approach from as much of a dead angle as possible, and a lone bomber is still easy meat.

------------------
Rickenbacker (Ricken)

-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force

[This message has been edited by Rickenbacker (edited 11-16-2000).]

SKurj · « **Reply #48 on:** November 16, 2000, 06:18:00 PM »

Ketten.. that dispersion I think would be an advantage over the current system in AH now.
When gunning a buff now, if u don't exactly hit the location the attacking fighter is in, all 5 .50's you may be blasting away with miss. Dispersion.... ok if I were just using 1 gun position, that fighter on my 6 would be hit just a few times with as many or more misses. Now consider I am firing 5 .50's guess what ... throwing that much lead at you with hits occuring when my aim is slightly off and the same number of hits when my aim is right on, results in a fighter going down. The dispersion would help those buff gunners who don't take many fighters down now (the majority) especially against 6 attacks.

Leave buffs alone.
Once you've been in Aces for a few months, and seen all areas of the sim, from all POV's, feel free to criticize +)

SKurj

eskimo · « **Reply #49 on:** November 16, 2000, 06:26:00 PM »

"In a side attack the advantage would lay with gunner. He is looking at a target coming straight at him with very little deflection while the fighter is facing a 90 degree deflection. The relative wind would be full value for both."

ROTFLMHO

Ketten, stop and think about it for one second before you make any more stupid comments! BOTH planes are moving! That means, from a waist gunner's point of view, a side attacking fighter is going to zip across his field of view, from front to back. The fighter is only pointing at him for an instant! It is pretty damn hard to track a plane that is closing at 400 mph, while panning your gun from 1:30 to 4:30 in one or two seconds.

In this attack, the bomber ends up flying through the fighters stream of fire. It gets raked from nose to tail. From the fighter pilot's point of view, all that he has to do is make sure that the pitch of his aircraft is good. If the bomber flies through his sights, from side to side, it's getting whacked.

These same principles are what makes the vertical attack also so effective. I suppose that now you are going to say that the Germans didn't do vertical attacks. Whatever dude.

Ketten, attacking a bomber, such as the B-17 that has a 360 degree field of fire, a deflection shot is the way to go.

Try it and your frustrations with buff hunting will end!

Now if you would spend less time supposing, and just hop in a dang bomber, all of this wouldn't be so confusing.

As far as cones of fire go, WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT A 45 DEGREE SPREAD. A 1 or 2 degree spread will give you a deadly cone of fire. Bombers used MGs, not sniper riffles.

Why do you think hunters use shotguns on moving targets.

eskimo

Replicant · « **Reply #50 on:** November 16, 2000, 06:33:00 PM »

Troll?

KetteJG26 · « **Reply #51 on:** November 16, 2000, 07:29:00 PM »

Eskimo....
That's not me supposing m8 that tidbit comes from Mike Spick. He's a historian/author who has written several books on Air to Air combat. "Fighters at War","Designed for the Kill", "Modern Air Combat", and "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces: The tactics and techniques of the Experte".
If 90 degree deflection attacks were as succesful in real life..don't you think an Air Force at war would adopt em?
so....ROFLMAO..
Hey its ok m8....someone will think ur cool..

By the way I escorted 3 lanc's to target. All but one came home and they got more kills than the escort. 6 enemy to 4 of us..

KetteJG26 · « **Reply #52 on:** November 16, 2000, 07:38:00 PM »

Hey eskimo..
your father-in-law used RP-63's as target drones? When?
I was in Beta testing for AH too m8. I wasn't gonna pay 30 bucks a month for AH though when it went out of beta.

[This message has been edited by KetteJG26 (edited 11-16-2000).]

juzz · « **Reply #53 on:** November 17, 2000, 05:02:00 AM »

Here's a useful article: http://www.combatsim.com/htm/aug99/fighter-tactic1.htm

This one seems particularly relavant...

THE SWOOPER

Lead Squadron of Group, Any Combat Wing

TACTICS DESCRIPTION

In the diagram above, the single-engine aircraft makes a diving attack from 10 o'clock, high, swooping down under the squadron. Seldom is the fighter closer to the Fortress squadron than 500 yards, and in this type of attack the fighter comes down from an angle of between 30 and 40 degrees, without rolling over. The fighter pulls out of the dive when clear of the squadron.

IMPORTANT: This type of diving attack can be and often is made under the high and low squadrons, as follows:

(1) Under low squadron, from any position between 6 to 12 o'clock, high.

(2) Under the high squadron, from any position between 12 to 3 o'clock, high.

The diving attack under the lead squadron is often made from any position between 9 to 1 o'clock, high.

VARIATION

While in the majority of these swooping attacks the figher goes under the squadron formation, sometimes it goes over the formation. If the combat formation is bad, the fighter may dive and go through the formation, i.e., between the lead and high squadrons or, if diving from the 12 to 3 o'clock positions, between the lead and low squadrons. Almost invariably, when the fighter dives and pulls up over the formation, the pull-up is over the high squadron.

TACTICS LESSON

Diving attacks with deflection are what we like. The fighter is at a disadvantage. He has a hard shot and can get in only a short burst. Gunners have plenty of time to shoot him down.

That said, I find that a 90º deflection diving attack is what works best for me vs B-17's also...

MrLars · « **Reply #54 on:** November 17, 2000, 12:18:00 PM »

Does anybody know if a bombers crew can be killed? If you can kill the gunners, disable that gunner position in the first pass, this could add some needed realism to attacking bombers. Rambling 'cause I'm sure this has been brought up in the past

Lars

Fury · « **Reply #55 on:** November 17, 2000, 12:20:00 PM »

Turret positions can be knocked out. It's quite distressing to not be able to shoot back

Fury

Rickenbacker · « **Reply #56 on:** November 17, 2000, 01:21:00 PM »

Yes, they can be killed. There's also a bug here that means that if any of your gunners is injured or killed, the pilot is injured as well.

------------------
Rickenbacker (Ricken)

-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force

buhdman · « **Reply #57 on:** November 17, 2000, 01:28:00 PM »

MrLars,

Yes, gun positions can be knocked out, but it's better NOT to rely on that. Rely on speed and position to get you through an attack on a bomber

As to the rest of this discussion ... GEESH!

buhdman, out

------------------
Walt (buhdman) Barrow
(formerly lt-buhd-lite)
The Buccaneers - "Return with Honor"
home.earthlink.net/~wjbarrow

MrLars · « **Reply #58 on:** November 17, 2000, 01:48:00 PM »

Thanks for the info guys! That's something I didn't know.

Lars

KetteJG26 · « **Reply #59 on:** November 17, 2000, 10:15:00 PM »

Seems to me the something is porked in the sim when the most successful attacks against bombers in AH are exactly the opposite of Historically successful attacks.