Author Topic: Is it just me  (Read 2110 times)

Offline Murdr

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2009, 04:46:22 PM »
and from the "honor, respect, fair play thread,

color me with contradicting messages?  :noid   Tactically, staying up as opposed to pigpiling the solo con *is* poor decision - makes more sense to stay up for that incoming wave. You can let them go diving down into the pigpile to help their solo gangee, giving you, as the remaining high con a variety of tactical options.

Before you say, apples and oranges, let's keep it to bananas, meaning you're both encouraging newbies to go against "conventional wisdom," i.e. tactics.   Going for the HO and pigpiling one lower con both result in leaving one with a tactically inferior position - despite what both you and dedalos claim, respectively.

When I duel deadlos to test his theory.. i may or may not avoid the HO and instead HO back, making it the usual 50-50 proposition, thereby negating his claim, which only works because both know the deal, and the HOer will be anticipating an avoidance, negating the actual HO shot.

Hi Shane :)  I just re-read the quote, and I can't see where I wasn't clear enough about it.  It's not uncommon for me to see this situation when I am spending my login at a furball between 2 fields.  Me being the lone con magnet at 8k when the next 12k wave comes in is of no benefit to me.  This situation is clearly caused by the excess knuckleheads on the deck.  If I can swoop in, remove their reason for being on the deck and zoom almost right back up to where I was, I lose nothing, but gain friendlies grabbing E.  This is usually preceeded by the observational though "this is ridiculous, these guys are taking entirely too long to dispatch one enemy".

However, your point makes sense.  I essentially pointed out an exception to the conventional wisdom, by giving the example of what I may do if the situation fits.  What I did not do is call the conventional wisdom BS and wrong.

Offline splitatom

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2009, 05:30:35 PM »
the only plane i love hoeing in is the il2 because i know i can win and they are idiots to try to do it
snowey flying since tour 78

Offline dedalos

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2009, 08:22:28 AM »
What I did not do is call the conventional wisdom BS and wrong.

No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that  :rofl

Conventional wisdom  :rofl  Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom.  But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so.  Prove me wrong.  Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger  :rofl :rofl :rofl
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2009, 08:52:17 AM »
No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that  :rofl

Conventional wisdom  :rofl  Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom.  But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so.  Prove me wrong.  Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger  :rofl :rofl :rofl

No secret motivation at all, other than to point out both of you were giving newbies advice that, ummmm, should have been presented differently, imho.  What I'm saying is that, newbies might heed this "advice" and now we have an even newer generation of ganging HOers.  Capice?
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2009, 08:54:20 AM »
No, you should have called it a troll or that he is having some kind of secret reasons for post that  :rofl

Conventional wisdom  :rofl  Get a bunch of clueless people in a room and they will come up with what their version of conventional wisdom.  But hay, everyone should follow it because they said so.  Prove me wrong.  Lets try it, conventional wisdom says I will die in seconds just because my finger clicked the trigger  :rofl :rofl :rofl

I didn't call anything.  I asked what the point was and fielded a couple of theories.  But you've just answered the question.  You're dropping into a conversation about what we find to be the normal case in the MA, and you're edjumacating us poor clueless folk with points that we'll rarely if ever run into in the MA.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2009, 09:08:28 AM »
No secret motivation at all, other than to point out both of you were giving newbies advice that, ummmm, should have been presented differently, imho.  What I'm saying is that, newbies might heed this "advice" and now we have an even newer generation of ganging HOers.  Capice?

I wasn't giving advise.  I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why. 

Offline dedalos

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2009, 09:31:03 AM »
I wasn't giving advise.  I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why. 

No advice here either.  Just my opinion.  Honestly, I see no difference in the game than 5 years ago as far as the new players go.  New is new and will fire at anything red anyway they can.  It does not mean they dont want to learn.  It means they got exited they actually got a chance to fire at something.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2009, 09:44:18 AM »
I wasn't giving advise.  I simply stated where I'll make an exception, and why. 


well.... it's not just a simple matter to seperate what a newbie may take away from the message (since clarified, obviously) from the messenger - your training badge, so to speak. They also see you at odds with dedalos about HO merges (also further clarified.)  See what I'm getting at?  I know... I know... but I'm not a newbie.

And think about this:  would these two issues/situations have been "further clarified" if I hadn't chimed in?   :noid

Let's just all agree that I'm right when stating HO merges and gangings are poor tactical and gameplay choices. I'll concede to you both that under certain circumstances, exceptions occur.   :aok




Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline dedalos

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2009, 10:49:36 AM »

Let's just all agree that I'm right when stating HO merges and gangings are poor tactical and gameplay choices. I'll concede to you both that under certain circumstances, exceptions occur.   :aok

 :lol I always start typing keeping in mind that if you respond, you will be right  :P

BTW, agree on the game play.  Very poor.  Tactical? well, again, there is a reason most people fly like like that in the game.  Not to mention that real life is also about numbers and better equipment.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Shane

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2009, 11:22:03 AM »
:lol I always start typing keeping in mind that if you respond, you will be right  :P

BTW, agree on the game play.  Very poor.  Tactical? well, again, there is a reason most people fly like like that in the game.  Not to mention that real life is also about numbers and better equipment.

I'm awlays right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.  :noid
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline WWM

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2009, 11:43:22 AM »
I think what sets the HO'er in a bad position is the greed that comes with it.  If I am merging and watching angles I am in "Observation, orientation" and constantly making decisions to put my plane on a firing solution to where he will hopefully be through continuous orientation.   When someone stays in the "action" (pulling the trigger) phase without proper orientation to make a good decision (where I need to angle my plane, throttle, etc...), they put themselves behind the curve.   I have almost gotten into a bad habit of offering a shot to my opponent to entice them into a bad decision.  It works many times as they stall or place their plane at a bad angle but when I encounter a very good stick I end up in the tower in less then 2 seconds.  They don't fall for it or they don't miss the enticing shot which leaves me behind the curve.

So I agree that if you dodge the HO and put your plane at a poor place in space and angle and the HOer stops the straight on attack and breaks into a normal merge he would have the edge, BUT if I can practice a merge that both gives me good placement for a merge AND makes it difficult for the HOer to put well aimed fire on me it will give me the edge as long as I don't deviate and break.  Filth has a very unusual merge that does this I think.

Everyone goes through this cycle of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act.  The person that can go through it at a quicker tempo usually wins.

Search John Boyd for more interesting reading on the OODA loop.  We have adopted this teaching for law enforcement with very good results.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 11:50:57 AM by WWM »
Jay12

Offline dedalos

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2009, 12:52:50 PM »

Search John Boyd for more interesting reading on the OODA loop.  We have adopted this teaching for law enforcement with very good results.


I want to hear more about law enforcement and HO stories.  With pictures please.  :D
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline WWM

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2009, 02:51:08 PM »
lol...what happens with the HO stays with the HO  :noid
Jay12

Offline SlapShot

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2009, 03:20:21 PM »
I'm awlays right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.  :noid

:rofl
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Offline Shane

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Re: Is it just me
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »
:rofl

hellsya!!   :rock

<sniffle> I had a few nice player quotes in my sig way back before skuzzy went commie on sig sizes, etc. One form seeker about <cough> sportsmanship, honor and integrity in an online game - something to the effect of that's all we really have in one.  Yeah, here it is. I quoted part of it in my sig.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,49266.msg443121/topicseen.html#msg443121  :noid

And one from drunky about me being akin to tossing a grenade into a hamster farm.   :D  heh, gotta love search.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,87673.msg867072/topicseen.html#msg867072
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 04:23:32 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.