Author Topic: Hoing defined ?  (Read 4160 times)

Offline BlauK

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5091
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2009, 06:43:52 AM »
Honestly, if you are alone and being pressed by 3 enemies, and a 4th one dives in offering you a HO shot... you won't take it???? You rather just dodge and then keep on dodging and die dodging 4 enemies?

Well... your choice, of course. If you see that as a problem, we definitely are not playing a same game :) ...then again. We are all free to play this game the way we enjoy it.

Whining is simply useless and childish :P


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline Tr0jan

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2009, 07:08:51 AM »
Can someone explain to me how hoing works?  When I go in with someone, I've become rather good at getting kill shots and turning away, but many times the guy turns with me and everytime even though it appears we missed by 50+ feet, I see a collision msg.  Sure enough, I fall out of the sky while the other guy ...smoking...flies on.

It appears that if the other guy hits you from the top or right side, you lose...so I just try to avoid the fight till I can get a familiar altitude with him to take it to a more 'proper' fight.

??


Thats a HO.. nose to nose both with shots on the other person

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2009, 10:22:42 AM »
Then there are the ones where one player sees a nose-to-nose merge/remerge coming, strives mightily to avoid it, and the other guy gets to righteously claim "It wasn't a HO" because their opponent wasn't pointing his guns directly at them, because he trying to avoid having the fight end with mutually assured destruction...

(Image removed from quote.)

Thats a HO.. nose to nose both with shots on the other person
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Tr0jan

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1112
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2009, 10:30:54 AM »
Then there are the ones where one player sees a nose-to-nose merge/remerge coming, strives mightily to avoid it, and the other guy gets to righteously claim "It wasn't a HO" because their opponent wasn't pointing his guns directly at them, because he trying to avoid having the fight end with mutually assured destruction...


Yea.. but i was defining that certain type of HO  :D :uhoh

Offline Joker2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2009, 12:25:56 PM »
Someone in this thread talked about the HO and the free kill from the disadvantage that may arise from avoiding.

What works well sometimes especially on the high diving Pony is at 1.5 give them a burst to let them know if your intention is to HO i will also.

This will usually make them break slightly and give u a clean merge.

It also quickly identifies the HOtard, if he keeps coming, u know what is coming, and can react accordingly.

I agree most Hotards are easily reversed and usually dead very quickly.

There are some that are famous for this However u can almost bet on 90% of the ponies will HO.

90% of the 190's will HO

90% of Tiffies will HO

100% of 110's will HO

98% of Hurri's will HO

98% of La's will HO

Chogs another HO machine but less likely cuz its perked

Obviously the IL2 but this one is your fault not theirs

These #'s are obviously not researched and pure opinion but u get my drift i think.

Oh and 1 More i almost forgot which has gotten out of control, its bad enough to be a SpitTard but a SPITHOTARD is worse of all.
I WANTED TO BE THE FIRST KID ON MY BLOCK WITH A CONFIRMED KILL!

Offline BlauK

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5091
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2009, 06:14:52 PM »
I always forget... which one is the HOtard, the one who is first heading towards his enemy, or the one who turns towards the enemy which is heading at him....  :rolleyes:

Or is it the one who survives the HO?  :rofl


  BlauKreuz - Lentolaivue 34      


Offline WMLute

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4512
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2009, 08:41:56 PM »
My merge in the LW is actually very similar to what I would do in the DA with guns cold on 1st pass.  I WANT them to maneuver for the HO, as it makes the rest of the fight so much easier for me.

It is all about timing.  I do my break/lead turn RIGHT as they are about to shoot me.  I tend to do a shallow dive and I like to be nosing up slightly to them on the merge (as in they are under 1k out from me when I do this).  I can tell (usually) who is gonna fall for it by how they react to my mini-juke (which is basically just me changing my vector slightly a couple times as we close under 1k. doesn't have to be a shallow dive but it is most just import. to be changing your vector).

But WHEN to do the "real" merge is all about practice to get the timing down.  I will ask if any of my squaddies have film still of a few 2 on 1's we did last year.  It would show what I am talking about.  They are both great sticks, but fight after fight they just couldn't HIT me solid 'nuff to shoot me down.  I managed this by doing slight vector changes when they had gun solution.

It's similar to when you got a con on your 6 d600 back shooting.  Those little mini-jukes you do to evade their bullets.  Something like that, but during the fight.

You would be amazed what just a slight change of vector will do, but you have to TIME it right.  Don't do your actually "move" untill they are starting to pull their trigger (hopefull RIGHT before they pull).  I will generally pull into a turn to give them something to line up on, but when they are JUST ABOUT to shoot me is when I do my "real" move.  It can be as simple as a slight vector change or something more complex like this one low yoyo to an immel to a lag displacment roll that I tend to do.

I flew for the first time in over a month this past week and I will try to remember (once I shake just a little rust off) to film what I am talking about.

This works if they are on my 6,12,9 whatever, but it especially works in the HO.  You can merge nose to nose with the ho'rs.  Just don't be where their guns are pointed when they pull the trigger.  Timing, timing, timing.  Too soon, they will see it and adjust.  Too late and they will hit ya'.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 08:50:05 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline FireDrgn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1115
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2009, 08:50:56 PM »
which is the hotards excuse. when you're merging them, they turn head on into you....with full intention of firing. you turn, slip, dive....whatever avoidence maneuver you choose.....you take ur guns off them. if your evasive was unsuccessful, and you call em on it, they call it a deflection shot, because you didn't have a guns solution. BS. it was a friggin ho.  perhaps if they'd take the offers of help from the likes of murdr, hammer, and other trainers, they;d learn how to fight, and not need to ho in the first place.

 friggin tards......... :mad: :furious

I relize the mentality~! How can u not ?...thats the reason for the :devil  I was playing the devils advocate....

I wont say names but there is an la7 pilot that goes straight for you every time ....if you move at all he kicks the rudder and "that was a deflection shot" but you get a face full on the first merge gauranteed....
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."   I am not a teacher.

Offline Sloehand

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 874
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2009, 04:17:01 AM »
To expand on what WMLute is saying, my squad has actually trained and practised to encourage or give the impression of commiting to the HO, then avoid it to maneuver for a Lead Turn onto the bandit's six.

It is not that hard to be successful in the avoidance maneuver 80 to 90+% of the time.  The secret, as Mr. Lute said, is practising the timing needed and the correct maneuver.

The thing to know is that to avoid getting shot, you need to take your aircraft Out-of-Plane with your opponent.  And, doing so in only one dimension (such as nosing straight down to fly under him, called going negative for Vertical Separation) is usually not enough.  If he's quick, he'll nose down too and hose a long burst in front of your path as you pass under his nose.  You must add a second Out-of-Plane element in another dimension to further foil the bandit from getting that nose-down guns solution.  Such as immediately after starting the nose-down move, pull a quarter bank angle to the right or left. 

In fact, the way we execute this is at 1.5K you push nose-down.  If bandit really wants you, he noses down to stay sight-on.  This increases his speed - a bad thing for trying to reverse turn quickly later.  A quarter second later at 1000K, you initiate your second Out-of-Plane move, which for me is usually a slight bank and pull right (this is going for Lateral Separation - both types of separation give you Turning Room on the bandit after you pass him), then pull up and left into a wide half barrel roll, which I reverse back to nearly level flight and continue immediately to pull into a reversing loop to get on the bandit's six.

All happening in less than a second or so, it's rare that the bandit corrects quickly enough in all dimensions to get a solid hit, if any.  At that point, as you flash past he is still committed to manuevering for the HO kill with no plan for reversing into a turn fight.  He's late in deciding to turn, has more speed than he should have to do so.  You have at least a half to 1 and a half seconds of maneuvering lead on him, even if he recovers to the situation fairly quickly.

I'll show anyone who wishes to learn this maneuver how to do it in the TA.  Don't hate the HO'er.  Encourage him.  Nuture him.  For he is a dogfighter's quick kill waiting to happen.   :D
Jagdgeschwader 77

"You sleep safe in your beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do you harm."  - George Orwell
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 07:35:00 AM »
To expand on what WMLute is saying, my squad has actually trained and practised to encourage or give the impression of commiting to the HO, then avoid it to maneuver for a Lead Turn onto the bandit's six.

It is not that hard to be successful in the avoidance maneuver 80 to 90+% of the time.  The secret, as Mr. Lute said, is practising the timing needed and the correct maneuver.

The thing to know is that to avoid getting shot, you need to take your aircraft Out-of-Plane with your opponent.  And, doing so in only one dimension (such as nosing straight down to fly under him, called going negative for Vertical Separation) is usually not enough.  If he's quick, he'll nose down too and hose a long burst in front of your path as you pass under his nose.  You must add a second Out-of-Plane element in another dimension to further foil the bandit from getting that nose-down guns solution.  Such as immediately after starting the nose-down move, pull a quarter bank angle to the right or left. 

In fact, the way we execute this is at 1.5K you push nose-down.  If bandit really wants you, he noses down to stay sight-on.  This increases his speed - a bad thing for trying to reverse turn quickly later.  A quarter second later at 1000K, you initiate your second Out-of-Plane move, which for me is usually a slight bank and pull right (this is going for Lateral Separation - both types of separation give you Turning Room on the bandit after you pass him), then pull up and left into a wide half barrel roll, which I reverse back to nearly level flight and continue immediately to pull into a reversing loop to get on the bandit's six.

All happening in less than a second or so, it's rare that the bandit corrects quickly enough in all dimensions to get a solid hit, if any.  At that point, as you flash past he is still committed to manuevering for the HO kill with no plan for reversing into a turn fight.  He's late in deciding to turn, has more speed than he should have to do so.  You have at least a half to 1 and a half seconds of maneuvering lead on him, even if he recovers to the situation fairly quickly.

I'll show anyone who wishes to learn this maneuver how to do it in the TA.  Don't hate the HO'er.  Encourage him.  Nuture him.  For he is a dogfighter's quick kill waiting to happen.   :D

film?

it seems that all you guys that claim it's easy to avoid.....(i manage sometimes, but not all the time).
there are people in the arenas that will manage to hit you regardless of your using a single or multiple maneuvers to avoid.
 i've done shallow dives, shallow dives combined with a little slip, climbing the same way, easy turns, hard turns.........and they all call it a deflection shot at that point, because i took my guns off of him.
 believe me.....if i were the uber ho-avoider some of you guys claim to be, i'd never be in one of these threads.

as for having a head start on maneuvering with him? i almost always see them continue straight ahead......extending/......


film man!! film!!!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 07:37:11 AM by CAP1 »
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline WMLute

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4512
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 08:54:52 AM »
film?

it seems that all you guys that claim it's easy to avoid.....(i manage sometimes, but not all the time).
there are people in the arenas that will manage to hit you regardless of your using a single or multiple maneuvers to avoid.

as for having a head start on maneuvering with him? i almost always see them continue straight ahead......extending/.....

Here is the "fun" bit.  Yes they will sometimes keep going (not always) and extend.  Then they will reverse and try it again.  USUALLY on the 3rd or 4th failed attempt they will "do something stupid" and try to maneuver with you (most likely out of frustration) and they die quickly.  Rare indeed is the guy who will ONLY ho until they are out of ammo (which does happen, but not usually).

As for the guys that will "always hit you", as I said I can usually count on one hand the ones that actually "get" me each tour (and those I usually allow the HO and HO 'em back 'cause I'm out #'d or damaged etc).  I am just not where they are shooting 99.5% of the time.  That is the "timing" of it.  It isn't any one or two "special secret" maneuvers.  Most of the time it is a simple bank of the plane so I am not where they are aiming.  You have to practice the timing of it.

King of the Hill is the best place to see what I am talking about.  There are several pilots who are most excellent at what I am talking about.  (ManeTMP comes to mind, as does SkyRock, Stang, Murdr, FX1 <insert uber stick here, there are many in KOTH>)  You go to pull guns and they are JUST out of solution.  It seems every time you have a gun solution and you shoot they have changed their position slightly and you miss.  KOTH is where I finally figured out how to do this.  I watched others for years do this in CM eye God mode and it finally "clicked" one day and I practiced it.

Again, the "trick" isn't the maneuver, it's the timing.  Give them a shot to line up and aim and when they pull the trigger, don't be there.  Most of the time they are JUST missing me.  (I hear the 'ting, ting, ting' of the close misses more often than not)  It isn't WHAT you do so much as WHEN you do it.

Sloehand has it right though.  You do one maneuver so they line you up for a shot, and then do a second so you are not where they are firing at.  "Out of Plane" is exactly what I am talking about, but I'm trying to keep it simple and w/o any "jargon".

"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17658
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2009, 09:20:10 AM »
In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"



In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage. 



Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2009, 09:45:27 AM »
In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"

(Image removed from quote.)

In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage. 

(Image removed from quote.)

Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?

JUST A COUPLE WEEKS  ago, i tried what you're showing in the second pic. when i came outta my turn, we were nose to nose. i turned off to his right, to gain myself some seperation for the upcomming turns. he immediatly pointed into me, and before i could do anything else, i was minus my right engine, and PW'd.
 this was no noob either.....it was a vet....one i used to respect. ooo.....and he did use the ""it wasn't a ho, it was a deflection shot" line. like they all do.

 now on the other hand, a month or so ago, i had a spit9 did nothing but try to ho me. he hit me on one of the passes, but no major damage. the one he got me on was when i got pissed enough to not avoid, and on pass#4 i ho'd him back. we both died..which i thinnk i mentiopned in this thread earlier. i was in a 38, and couldn't manage to get his six, or any other good shots before he had his nose pointed back at me again.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2009, 10:00:27 AM by CAP1 »
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2009, 11:43:19 AM »
Forgive my crude work Fugi, but I modified the image slightly to depict a potential mid-point problem I am imagining, particularly if it turns out your opponent does not wish to HO...?














In this first picture you turn in about the same time as the enemy plane you are accepting the HO. You know he's going to shoot, and the best you can do is roll or jink a bit, at which point he will slam his rudder and call it a "deflection shot"

(Image removed from quote.)

In this second picture you are not giving him the HO shot. This is the best way to avoid the HO. Instead of turning toward him to go head to head, continue away. This can be either in a flat plain like the picture shows, or it could be in a vertical or any combination of both. It forces him to maneuver for his shot. If he doesn't want to maneuver, you are already part way through your turn and in the position of advantage. 

(Image removed from quote.)

Thats the biggest problems with HOs, it takes 2 to HO. By turning towards the enemy like that you give up angles, and give them the option to HO or rudder in a "deflection shot". Sure against the horde you get stuck facing the wrong way sometimes, but if you have the choice why go H2H?
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline CAP1

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22287
      • The Axis Vs Allies Arena
Re: Hoing defined ?
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »
I relize the mentality~! How can u not ?...thats the reason for the :devil  I was playing the devils advocate....

I wont say names but there is an la7 pilot that goes straight for you every time ....if you move at all he kicks the rudder and "that was a deflection shot" but you get a face full on the first merge gauranteed....

yaknow what? i think i owe ya an apology!  :rofl i thought ya were serious.


DOH!!!


sorry bout that cheif(in my best maxwell smart voice.)  :aok
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)