Author Topic: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.  (Read 5989 times)

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2009, 11:06:34 AM »
Found a G-force calculator, thought it was interesting to mess with speeds.

http://www.rcpro.org/rccalc/GForce.aspx

If you were to complete a 450ft radius cirlce at 7G's, you couldn't be going faster than 216.5MPH TAS.

At 400MPH TAS the P-51 would be pulling 23.9G's and would weigh roughly 182,485.93lbs... Empty...

That is 776.53lb/ft^2 wingloading... If it still had wings...

The radius of the circle would have to be 1345ft at 400MPH TAS to keep the G's in aircraft specifications of 8G's.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:10:01 AM by SectorNine50 »
I'm Sector95 in-game! :-D

Offline Murdr

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #76 on: February 06, 2009, 11:11:31 AM »
At 400MPH TAS the P-51 would be pulling 23.9G's and would weigh roughly 182,485.93lbs... Empty...

That is 776.53lb/ft^2 wingloading... If it still had wings...

Nice to see I didn't mess up the calculations (posted on reply #63)...Or if I did, someone also did it exactly the same way :)  Nice find on the flight specific calculator, added to bookmarks.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:13:36 AM by Murdr »

Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #77 on: February 06, 2009, 11:14:44 AM »
Well, looks like everyone beat me to it.  Newtons Second Law, and a little value called Pi that the Greeks discovered a couple thousand years ago.  Fluid dynamics without thrust vectoring, exclude or invalidate every rational you've come up with.  Since you've ignored my previous post containing lots of info, including period data, there's no need to waste my time explaining anything further, because you have no real interest in the reply.

But we don't need to look up someone who has flown a real P-51, because we have someone right here who just posted ahead of me.

HiTech flew a P51 :D

Anyway, ....is Gaston perhaps...Voss?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline thrila

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #78 on: February 06, 2009, 11:27:40 AM »
To Karnak; +25 lbs Spit IX top speed is 1-3 MPH higher than lower power Mk IXs, IF that... Of course, speed was increased +15-20 MPH at lower altitudes. Still, is it not VERY significant that no MK IX ever went beyond about 405 MPH TAS, when the same-engine P-51B, or the MK XIV with little more power, did 440?... Why confuse the issue with what speed the Mk IX gained at SOME altitudes? Putting it another way, excluding the Japanese Military Power vs WEP debacle, show me a SLOWER top speed for a light weight fighter with 2000 HP... (Light weight excluding the Hellcat/Corsair etc...)

I am talking about the mass-produced LF Mk IX at +25 lbs; the main mass of Mk IXs produced. A super climber, but still unusually slow for a lightweight 2000 hp aircraft... Your claim that this 415 MPH top speed is from a 2000 hp +25lbs engine is false, and is clouding things more than clarifying them... I'll concede that this site IS confusing...

Correct me if i'm wrong but top speed is determined by thrust and drag, weight has very little effect on top speed which is achieved when thrust = drag.  A heavier plane will have a higher top speed with the same thrust, if it is aerodynamically cleaner.  There is no reason not to compare top speed between the f6f and the spitfire considering weight is a moot point.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:29:22 AM by thrila »
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
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Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #79 on: February 06, 2009, 11:37:49 AM »
Thrust & lift vs weight & drag.
Increasing weight will increase (lift induced) drag.
cleaning up (getting rid of parasite drag) will help.
But, loading up an aircraft will basically lower top speed.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline hitech

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #80 on: February 06, 2009, 11:49:09 AM »
Angus , you are correct that adding weight will lower top speed, but when we are speaking of aircraft that travel at 3 to 4 times their 1 g stall spread, the amount of speed lost to induced drag in level flight is very very small.

HiTech

Offline Rebel

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2009, 12:02:59 PM »
... If it still had wings...

..or a pilot that wasn't a pile of goo in the seat LOL!   At 23.9 G's, the pilot alone weighs more then 4,000 pounds.  OYE! 
"You rebel scum"

Offline thrila

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #82 on: February 06, 2009, 12:45:11 PM »
Thrust & lift vs weight & drag.
Increasing weight will increase (lift induced) drag.
cleaning up (getting rid of parasite drag) will help.
But, loading up an aircraft will basically lower top speed.

aye, i guess i should have said primarily determined :)
"Willy's gone and made another,
Something like it's elder brother-
Wing tips rounded, spinner's bigger.
Unbraced tailplane ends it's figure.
One-O-nine F is it's name-
F is for futile, not for fame."

Offline morfiend

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #83 on: February 06, 2009, 03:18:25 PM »
Thanks you have just made this a great day , because bursting out in laughter always lightens my mood.

Hmm I believe it was in 4th grade I learned Circumference (I.E. the distance around a circle for the physics impaired) =  2 Pi r = Pi d.

HiTech



Pie are round not square..... :devil

Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2009, 03:48:05 AM »
Angus , you are correct that adding weight will lower top speed, but when we are speaking of aircraft that travel at 3 to 4 times their 1 g stall spread, the amount of speed lost to induced drag in level flight is very very small.

HiTech

I know. It will do more harm to the cruise and acceleration though, and the stall speed..
Would you know what the different would be on a toploaded WW2 aircraft vs a very light one? (same) A tad hard trying that out in AH except on aircraft with big internal stores.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Gaston

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2009, 04:51:27 AM »
    
     Yes, the 450 ft. wide turn at 400 MPH doesn't seem to add up. Perhaps if it was stretched 2000ft., as the P-51 spun on itself, acting as a giant brake... I think Skychimp posted a misprint or something...
     

     The ability of the Mustang to spin on itself controllably at as it slided (at higher level speeds only) WAS useful to quickly gain something like 90-120° for aiming, and was featured in one episode of History Channel's "Dogfights", where a strangely painted yellow-nose Me-109G-10 was shot down in this way, while the actual pilot who had shot it down described this "special" maneuver, and the lucky shot he got as he sprayed gunfire ahead of him in a semi-circle, as his Mustang "spinned" on itself well over 100°.

      I have often heard of Mustangs instantly turning the tables on a pursuer directly behind by GAINING 360° inside ONE 360° turn, which means, to cite several specific combat reports, having double the turn rate of the pursuing Me-109G-6 at speeds of about 250-350 MPH TAS (the Messerschmitt's hole between its two turn peaks).

     There are dozens, hundreds, of anecdotes of the Mustang appearing near-invincible at higher speeds, and gaining 360° in less than 30 seconds (over 12° per second !), on a turning enemy.

     Though that 450 ft. turn will certainly turn out to be a misprint or an error by Skychimp (It really does seem not to add up...), a fact much easier to demonstrate is that the best turn rate of the P-47 and P-51 WAS at speeds closer to their maximum level speeds than the usually assumed 250-300 MPH range. This is supported by combat anecdotes, and by flying tests done with modern instruments less than 18 years ago...

     1990s tests. Quote (from memory); "To our surprise, these two aircraft's (P-47-P-51) best turn rates turned out to be quite a bit closer than expected to their maximum level speed, which implied an inability of these machines to sustain their best turn rate for any lenght of time. The P-51's stall at lower speeds was unforgiving, to the point where prolonged combat would not to be recommended, to avoid speed decreasing to a much lower point, making this more of an interceptor. The P-47 also maneuvered less well at lower speeds, but its stall was much more forgiving."


    I'll get those 1990's tests for your perusing...

    Gaston.

  

    

    

    

      

    

    
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 06:40:30 AM by Gaston »

Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2009, 08:03:11 AM »
I was lucky enough to get to know a pilot who flew, fought, and ACED in both the Spit and the P51.
He loved them both. He was not happy going from the Spit IX to the P51, but liked his P51 for the speed and range. When asked which was the better one, he said "The Spitfire". The P51 could not dogfight a Spitfire. However, the P51 was one heck of an offensive fighter, and the German aircraft could not run away from it. But in a dogfighting position he preferred the Spitfire.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2009, 08:26:42 AM »
I was lucky enough to get to know a pilot who flew, fought, and ACED in both the Spit and the P51.
He loved them both. He was not happy going from the Spit IX to the P51, but liked his P51 for the speed and range. When asked which was the better one, he said "The Spitfire". The P51 could not dogfight a Spitfire. However, the P51 was one heck of an offensive fighter, and the German aircraft could not run away from it. But in a dogfighting position he preferred the Spitfire.

Who was this person.  Just curious.

Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Gaston

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2009, 09:45:03 AM »

     Yes I would like to know too.

     Despite my criticism of the late Spitfires, I would agree too that it would dogfight better than the P-51 in prolonged duels.

   
     On another subject, I have to admit I porked the high-speed elevator handling of at least 3 of the 8 fighters in my game; P-38L, P-51B/C/D, and the Me-109G-6.

     Based on comparative evaluations with the P-51 and its supernatural high speed turn, the two others were porked along with it.

     I had assumed that high speed mushing could alleviate Gs, and explain tighter-than-expected high speed turns, but I didn't realize HOW MUCH mushing would be required; at least 2000 ft. of perpendicular braking at 400 MPH, if not more... Not really a turn anymore...

     I still think WWII aircraft can mush at these high speed, and that this can help produce tighter turns than one would expect (if the pilots can rave about them!), when combined with the rotation of "hanging on the prop". But clearly, I was influenced too much by these 400 MPH turn radius figures...

     Note that the Me-109 still in my opinion has two turn rate peaks, with the second one starting at 400-420 MPH, but, as Hitech said, the second "peak" cannot in any remote way be in the same category as the first one...

    The peak turn rate of the P-47 and P-51 cannot be near 400 MPH TAS, but I would still say it is much higher than usually assumed; say 330-350 MPH TAS...

    I consider myself fortunate that my game still has five fighters left... I'll fix the three porked ones, eventually...

    I guess that's what this forum is for!

    Gaston.

     
      http://www.visi.com/~mrowles/Advanced%20Air%20Force.html
   

Offline Angus

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Re: A game designer's viewpoint on AHWiki's aircraft descriptions.
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2009, 10:05:45 AM »
Who was this person.  Just curious.



That one:
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/3351/allmen/ace.html



A somewhat remote family member. One heck of a character, and I had one of the best moments of my life sitting between him and this guy:


You can pretty much try to guess the subjects....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)