Author Topic: Perfect navigation vs Perfect radar (Read 736 times)

LJK Raubvogel · « **Reply #15 on:** January 10, 2001, 03:55:00 PM »

Interesting idea, but I don't think there are enough distinguishing landmarks or terrain variations to allow navigation. If there were cities that could be distinguishable, or if the clipboard map was topographic, maybe. but, with the limitations of a computer monitor and the clipboard map, it would probably be a bit much.

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[This message has been edited by LJK Raubvogel (edited 01-10-2001).]

Maverick · « **Reply #16 on:** January 10, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »

Ahem,

I am here to play a game. If I want realism I go to the airport and fly my plane for real. This is a game and the "little nuances" that people clammor for in the quest for "realism" are mostly there. you just have to decide to either use them or not use the "crutch" as Cit calls it.

Make whatever disparaging remarks you want. There is always the option to ignore the clipboard if you do not like radar. Please do not try to decrease the options available for other players who are interested in playing and not "realism in a game".

PS I saw that radar has been modified. A b17 was heading to the HQ and was not on radar once it got past 25k alt. The sector bar was there but the radar even in an airfield sector did not show the buff. Look for more low earth orbit buffs to be in the arena. Not only do they get laser like accuracy on the bombing run, 30mm guns for defense(in the case of US buffs), ability to out turn fighters above 27k but now they have stealth technology.

More power to the buffs.

Mav

Nuku · « **Reply #17 on:** January 10, 2001, 10:36:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Maverick:

I am here to play a game. If I want realism I go to the airport and fly my plane for real.

I hear "Crimson Skies" is pretty good as a game with planes in it too.

Many other games are very exciting without perfect nav/radar. Quake, Half-life, and Rogue Spear for example. Quake and Half-life offer neither maps nor positions of people. Rogue Spear has perfect navigation, and partial spotting, but is still a real tense FPS to play. The lack of perfect positional/adversial awareness has had little impact on the popularity and fun of those games.

I don't think I once mentioned the main arena in my posts. There are some seriously handicapped pilots in there: I know for a fact that more than one newbie wasn't even sure which way to pull the stick to climb (I was very surprised: a very large percentage of the general population envision the joystick control as an absolute one. Up (forward) is "go up", and down (back) is "go down"). Really! Grab your non-aviation friend [you have friends, right?] and sit him/her down at your favorite PC-sim and ask them to climb or descend.

I'm fully aware of the past arguments about radar. I just wanted to open a discussion on another facet (navigation), not the main-arena settings, per se.

For historical re-enactments like Guadalcanal or Midway, where both forces were groping in the dark for each other [I'll kindly make sure you aren't ever sent an invitation], navigation becomes a major factor (you could miss the other fleet or not get home; CAP would be less interested in pursuing your poor little TBF 25nm for fear of losing their way back to their carrier).

I just want to shed light on this facet of AH and make folks go ("hmmm...")

LaVa · « **Reply #18 on:** January 10, 2001, 11:30:00 PM »

smell my fart>!@

radar no, radar punt this!!

Leave it alone..it makes sense if you think about it.

LaVa

Glasses · « **Reply #19 on:** January 11, 2001, 06:49:00 AM »

I say take out the GPS locator on aircraft leave only the sector bars .I remember in beta it was nerve racking and it kept me on my toes always maintaining SA scanning for bogeys. As is right now I only need to look at the clipboard see if the con appears in the map as non friendly or in the case of being above enemy territory see if there are friendlies in the clipboard around and engage. The element of surprise is non existent except for instantaneous bomber raids.

Regarding FPS like Rogue Spears it is true you have some surprise when you encounter the enemy not knowing where they are adds excitement to the game and makes them even more enjoyable,this would also make CAPs necessary,for example you may know there's a large enemy force over your country but you do not know their exact target so you set up a CAP over the most valuable assets the country may have , but right now if we see an enemy lonely dot above our territory it is most likely a bomber or a group of them so we know their exact location and can move around the formation until we reach their alt.

Mayhem yes it is absurd bombers outmaneuvering fighters at 27k.

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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.

Graywolf · « **Reply #20 on:** January 11, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by LJK Raubvogel:
Interesting idea, but I don't think there are enough distinguishing landmarks or terrain variations to allow navigation. If there were cities that could be distinguishable, or if the clipboard map was topographic, maybe. but, with the limitations of a computer monitor and the clipboard map, it would probably be a bit much.

I've flown bomber sorties in WarBirds using only a paper map. Actually that's not true, with the flight leader using only a paper map would be more true, the rest of us just kept formation and looked out for enemy aircraft. Made things a bit more fun.

It's really quite nice when your home base appears out of the fog exactly where you were expecting it after an hour or more of flying with the target sucessfully leveled =)

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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

LLv34_Camouflage · « **Reply #21 on:** January 11, 2001, 09:09:00 AM »

Great idea Nuku.

However, in the Main Arena it is good to leave it as it is currently. But for scenarios, it would be nice to have a host option to disable the GPS. As we know, the radar can already be disabled by the CMs.

Jigster, good stuff in your range finder thread as well.

Camo

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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

popeye · « **Reply #22 on:** January 11, 2001, 01:07:00 PM »

A first step?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum8/HTML/001020.html

hblair · « **Reply #23 on:** January 11, 2001, 08:01:00 PM »

Man have we all gotten soft. I remember when Aces High was first going beta, when radar came up on the message board most everyone seemed against inflight radar. I flew too much in the warbirds HA to think that the current radar situation is as good as it can get.

...and as far as having to spoon feed the newbies, I remember when I first started playing warbirds in the fall of '98, there were 200+ people in the main arena, (there's no in-flight dar there) everyone seemed ok with it to me.

I'm sorry, but not knowing exactly where the bad guy is is half the fun. Most people who don't agree with that probably...

A. have never done it and are too scared/lazy to try it or..

B. are too skeerd to stand up and speak their mind.

Mav, I thought you were an army guy, are you that soft?

[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 01-11-2001).]

Maverick · « **Reply #24 on:** January 11, 2001, 10:54:00 PM »

Hblair,

I am an Army guy and a motorcycle police guy, retired in both.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this GAME. As I said before, I am here to play a game. The object of this game is combat, whether it is naval, air 2 air or air to ground. If I want to practice navigation I'll go fly for real or play (shudder) MS flight sim 50000000 or whatever it is up to now.

Another point I made before was that this can be done by any player simply by not bringing out their clipboard. If they want to do without radar, or any navaids then they can do so without changing the game for anyone else.

This game "ain't broke" in these "suggestions for realism" and doesn't need fixing, as these "fixes" won't enhance game play. This has been the point of what I have been trying to say all along.

PS us Army guys start to laugh when we hear about the Air Force "roughing it".

Mav

hazed- · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2001, 11:13:00 PM »

Maverick you dont want realism?
I do want realism.(to a certain extent)
you pay i pay.
now explain to me why you should get what you want over what i want?
If you say you want to just kill stuff why dont you go fly somewhere else? theres loads of online sims for arcade type stuff.I dont mind the radar as it is apart from its perfect right to the ground.I think very low flying aircraft should be able to avoid radar.As to navigating realisticly? mmm not really interested,but if i was shot up and lost my radar/compass/whatever then thats fine by me ill on rare occasions face a new challenge.
From what ive read of your posts tonight(your reply to my post was simply 'yawn') you seem quite arrogant in your views and you dismiss other peoples ideas/suggestions with some venom...strangly enough much like any other pi...i mean policeman ive met.

military policeman? says it all

hazed 3./JG2

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 01-11-2001).]

Maverick · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2001, 11:49:00 PM »

Hazed,

I guess the appropriate bbs style reply to your post would be bite me.

I wasn't Military Police except for about 8 to 10 months. I was Armor for 23 years.

I was Civilian Police until disabled in the line of duty.

What did you do for your community or country that you feel privileged to denigrate my careers?

What I have been saying all along is leave the game parameters alone. If you don't want dar or a map, don't use it. Just leave it for those who do want it.

Mav

hazed- · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2001, 08:30:00 PM »

Mav ,im sorry to hear you were disabled in the line of duty and im not trying to denigrate your careers(?).I was merely making a joke about military police which you have expertly made look like an attack on a disabled person.<S>
Well I am in a wheelchair myself from a motorcycle accident when i was 18 so please dont use this tactic on me.I have never felt the need to mention this fact about myself and i fail to see the relevance of our physical states

Lets sheathe our swords and shake eh?

hazed

p.s. I stand by my statement that most(!) police ive met are bastards

and from what ive heard military are twice as bad ! now that was another joke before it all flies up again!this has got far too serious!

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 01-12-2001).]

Jimdandy · « **Reply #28 on:** January 15, 2001, 10:28:00 AM »

The radar in WWII (on non radar equipped planes) was used to vector aircraft into the target. You would obviously show up on the radar but you only had the map in your plane to go by if you even had a map. Taking your dot off the map would simulate that nicely. I do think those very new to the game might get discouraged. I was a fanatic about realism but the edge is wearing down a little. I don't want the computer to spray flaming oil at me any more.

But I like the idea of playing with adding more reality to the game. I don't want it to get out of the realm of fun though. I think as in AW there could be a "relaxed realism arena" and a "full realism arena." Leave the RR arena basically where it is now. In the FR we could play with adding these ideas. There have been a lot of neat ideas people have come up with that the more hard core would like to try. I can live with patching as we go to get some of these things.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-15-2001).]