Author Topic: Youre Thoughts U.S.A  (Read 2778 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2009, 09:38:13 PM »
Key words are Shelby and GT500... someone had to take a production car and make it better (thats not how it should go)..... it should be a production car is the best (they have the most cash)

production cars have to meet the demands of too many different areas. if i had the money, i'd buy a shelby in the blink of an eye.....beautiful car, and fast too...not the fastest......but still crazy fast.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2009, 09:42:39 PM »
1, Ever hear of EMP hardening? We design aircraft to fling nukes and then survive the EMP blast.

2, Getting close enough to track IR doesnt help you much when youv already been dead for 5 mins.

3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?

4, There isnt any single adversaries of similiar equipment so how can there be multiples?

5, If remote fighters were ever to be a possibility then I doubt any country other then America will be first to field them. Actually we already do, at least the recon/attack type. Dont worry Angus, nobody is going to be able to challenge NATO in our lifetimes.




TOO many of the wrong people thinking along the lines of #5    will be our downfall. overconfidence.
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Offline Puck

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2009, 10:26:43 PM »
F-22 up against...well...it was made in America, anyway.  This is a bootleg cap off a HUD video; there are those who don't want this released any more than Satrapa's pipper-on-helmet pic that ended up in AW&ST and nearly convinced the Japanese to by F-14s.  HAAAARRR!!

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Offline Serenity

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2009, 01:21:31 AM »
1, Ever hear of EMP hardening? We design aircraft to fling nukes and then survive the EMP blast.

2, Getting close enough to track IR doesn't help you much when youv already been dead for 5 mins.

3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?

4, There isnt any single adversaries of similiar equipment so how can there be multiples?

5, If remote fighters were ever to be a possibility then I doubt any country other then America will be first to field them. Actually we already do, at least the recon/attack type. Dont worry Angus, nobody is going to be able to challenge NATO in our lifetimes.




It's thinking like this that gets you VERY dead, VERY fast. The Raptor is a GREAT aircraft. Top of the line. But it isn't invincible.

1. The Raptor might survive the EMP blast, but what about the E-3 that's transmitting the data? That's an easy missile/guns kill. And the signal station back home? While we're talking nukes, that would probably be knocked out pretty quickly. And what about electronic warfare? I know it's insane, but every computer can be hit with a virus. The Raptor can transmit and receive EVERYTHING it's computer processes. So what happens when some insane lunatic with a mastery of computer writes a virus that, when transmitted to the Raptor, powers down it's computer? Yeah, it's not likely any time soon, but it is VERY possible. Computers are never completely secure.

2. Who says you have to be close? IR can be tracked from anywhere... from a carefully placed balloon to a ground station, and while I'm not familiar with the quality of our IR technology, who's to say it cannot be tracked by satelite?

3. No, computers will see it. Look at the thread in the O Club about the transonic light refraction. If a camera can pick that up, it can pick up a plane.

4. VERY VERY wrong. The Raptor has three major advantages: Stealth, BVR equipment, and supercruise. As we have been discussing, stealth isn't perfect. F-117s have been detected. So, lets say Russia launches some Su-37s to intercept. The BVR equipment can only track so many aircraft at once. Russia has no problems sacrificing hundreds of men for a small victory. So, we kill 12-13 of those Su-37s. Supercruise requires time to accelerate, time you cannot be maneuvering because the Gs will knock you out pretty quickly. So, a VERY hot engine, moving in a straight line. Nice IR missile target. So lets say the Raptor gets down and dirty. Anyone doubt an Su-37 is an even match in maneuverability with an F-22? And what about the MiG 1.44 project. The Su-47?

5. Remotes are dangerous, but they have their weaknesses. I'm honestly not too worried about those, but do not ever think it's impossible to challenge NATO anytime soon. Everyone is vulnerable.

These are all pretty far-fetched ideas that seem impossible, but just how long ago would we have scoffed at a plane invisible to radar, that cruises at mach 2 while firing missiles so far over the horizon the pilot's might never meet? Technology changes fast, and the Raptor may already be obsolete. It's kinda hard to judge how well she would stack up against a modern enemy when all she has done is play war-games with other American birds.

Offline moot

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2009, 03:15:03 AM »
F-22 up against...well...it was made in America, anyway.  This is a bootleg cap off a HUD video; there are those who don't want this released any more than Satrapa's pipper-on-helmet pic that ended up in AW&ST and nearly convinced the Japanese to by F-14s.  HAAAARRR!!

(Image removed from quote.)
IIRC Eagl said that pic isn't what it looks like.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2009, 04:35:15 AM »
46:
"3, Your saying what? The eye can see it during day or modern equipment can? Iceland has no military right?"

What I meant is that for the eye it is very hard to spot something that fast, even from the ground. (not mentioning air-to-air). There is a nice description of this from WW2, where the sailors of the Tirpitz watched the tallboys falling from the Lancasters, then suddenly they couldn't see them any more.
But modern optical equipment can. The documentary I watched had this in mind, - if the aircraft is going offensive over enemy territory it would be at night. Or on-top ;)
Nothing can meet the Raptor today. For those powers who want to meet it, uncloaking it is the vital thing. It will eventually be possible, those were just my thoughts on how.
When the first Stealth bombers started sneaking about (At NIGHT) they were told to be completely invisible. They were not quite always, and did at times get tracked. Hush-hush. The Sweeds tracked and followed one for a while, - the interceptor was a rather old-generation aircraft. And some stealth aircraft have been shot down...
We do not have a military BTW, just guests. So I have seen many modern combat aircraft whoooshing past me. British, French, American, even Swedish. I could normally see them, and definately hear them :D
Armed with advanced optics and a good artie network, I guess I could have shot them too  :devil
Anyway, NATO holds the lead, and nobody can touch them in the air now. But you have strong powers who will go far in investing to change that. I'll try to find the documentary, it's fun to watch.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2009, 05:00:11 AM »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline uptown

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2009, 05:51:42 AM »
This is the strangest thread I've seen in awhile. Half of it is about planes and the other half about cars.  :rofl
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Offline Puck

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2009, 09:25:22 AM »
IIRC Eagl said that pic isn't what it looks like.
Nothing ever is  :)

A picture like this out of context is a Rorschach blot.  More useful for the following conversation than the image itself.
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Offline iTunes

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2009, 03:03:35 PM »
Funy thing about these threads is we have pages of technical data, BVR and all the rest, bottom line is that if any of these hitech crates get in range, then a farmer with an MG could bring one down, not to mention some sort of large calibre weapon placed in the right spot, Ain't no gizmo/gadget/radar in the world going to save you from a  round in the right place.
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Offline Serenity

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2009, 03:33:28 PM »
Funy thing about these threads is we have pages of technical data, BVR and all the rest, bottom line is that if any of these hitech crates get in range, then a farmer with an MG could bring one down, not to mention some sort of large calibre weapon placed in the right spot, Ain't no gizmo/gadget/radar in the world going to save you from a  round in the right place.

And therein squats the toad.

Offline B3YT

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »
if i remember correctly the raptor is viable to radar for some time when it's deploying weapons . enough time to get a track . Russian IR can also track upto 35 miles in the older Su27 and MIG 29's.
3 years ago in Farnborough the b2 spirit was tracked by RAF SAM systems (UK developed) . not such a great idea to rely on just one trick .
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2009, 04:47:09 PM »
if i remember correctly the raptor is viable to radar for some time when it's deploying weapons . enough time to get a track . Russian IR can also track upto 35 miles in the older Su27 and MIG 29's.
3 years ago in Farnborough the b2 spirit was tracked by RAF SAM systems (UK developed) . not such a great idea to rely on just one trick .
Weapons bay pops open, missile launches, doors close.  Takes a couple of seconds at most and far too short of a time to develop a radar track.  A spot detection maybe...track no way.  That detection would be thrown out with the rest of the random noise in the EM spectrum.  Even if did notice the detection1 it wouldn't matter much since you still need to maintain radar track to guide a missile and the track will be lost when the doors are closed.  Long range IR is a really weak and unreliable system with lots of false targets and it's very susceptible to atmospheric disturbances, hardly a major threat.  As far a Farnborough is concerned don't believe everything that someone claims.  I'll bet that whatever guy made that claim worked for the SAM manufacturer (Farnborough is just a big trade fair after all) and said it to a prospective customer.  Also consider that if the SAM system in question was also at the airshow then it was probably only a mile or two away.  Blast away with enough power at a short enough range pointed directly at a visible target and sure, it could probably detect something but if your radar shows you a B2 a mile away then it really doesn't matter much does it?  Also remember that even stealth airplanes fly in airspace with other aircraft and therefore have the ability to be "non-stealthy".  The FAA and ICAO would not be happy with "invisible" airplanes flying around in the middle of a bunch of airliners. He probably had his ModeIII on and that's what the SAM was tracking (if tracking anything that is). 
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Offline Blake7

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2009, 03:55:25 AM »
I heard that the typhoons desighn is inherentlly unstable and its the computers that make it fly the way it does.

But the computers are so well advanced in the Typhoon that when there is something wrong with the a/c The Technition be he an Airframes or Electronics fitter,has only got to plug a lap top or something simular in to the A/C and the a/c(its Computers) will tell him whats wrong/ what needs replacing and even the part number.
 
But i am already wondering whats next for the modern fighter aircraft.when the Raptor and the Rafale the Typhoon and the Grippen are considered old aircraft. Whats Next. Pilotless R/C/A/C With Extreme manouverbilaty is what i have heard.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 04:10:31 AM by Blake7 »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Youre Thoughts U.S.A
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2009, 12:21:07 PM »
I heard that the typhoons desighn is inherentlly unstable and its the computers that make it fly the way it does.
All of the latest generation are pretty unstable without the computers.  It's called "relaxed static stability".  It makes the airplane far more agile but would require constant pilot inputs just to fly straight and level without the computers.  Actually, even more to the point I think only the F18 still has a direct mechanical backup system to it's fly-by-wire capabilities.  There are many redundancies built in (multiple computers, multiple data buses, etc) but if you were to lose the computers your only option is pretty much to jump out. 
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