Do you realize??

[Jekyll]

Spinny ... send me a virtual Kepford  

Managed a killstreak of 34 in the big blue bird last week as part of our squadron's 'Enter the Hog' week-long mini-scenario.

A virtual Kepford will look real nice on my virtual mantlepiece  

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Spinny: We did fine up high, the disparity you see is that after our first run we could not climb as high as you. When you think back by the second wave all the hogs were at 15-20k by the time they encontered us and we were at 12-15k. Hence you had alt advantage and we were trying to suck you down into us.

And yes the Nik2 is a much better fighter low and slow. We are more acrobatic, fight better at low speeds and have 4x20mm to make sure every snap shot counts. Hell you should know that by fighting them in the arena's. Every F4U that turned more than twice signed it's own death warrent.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

[spinny]

Well, heat of battle, etc. I still maintain
a Hog will beat a Nik above 20K, but as they say, we shall see...nice fights, though. Congrats to you guys.

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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X

[Curly]

 It appears to be just nerve twitching on his part now verm. You beat that poor bugger bad.  

 Maybe next time he decides to try and slug it out text for text with you he'll come with an ounce of real preparation before jacking his jaws off like a fool.

 Curly

[Duckwing6]

Anyhow i've noticed several times that you can disengage at will with a F4U from a Niki in AH. Given you have equivilent E state and you have some WEP left. Also i've had a pretty drawn out engagement with a niki back with version .42 where i was able to outrun and climb the niki at 200 KIAS down low at 3000 to 8000 feet. It should be even easier with the new FM changes (better acceleration)

SC-Duckwing6

[fats]

Juzz, Vermillion:

Some K-4s were actually delivered earlier than G-10s. And that happened in fall '44.


//fats

[F4UDOA]

Kill, Kill, Kill,

Ok Vermillion. You are dancing around the facts. If you think I am so far off in my facts tell me this. Do you disagree that the F4U had lower wing loading and could turn inside the likes of a P-51b or D. Or for that matter a Focke Wolf of any model later than a
A-4? Do you disagree that the F4U had better low speed control IE 100MPH to 150MPH than both of these aircraft? Do you think that the aileron controls or directional stability were better at low speed? Also if you actually read the book that you are obviously paraphrasing from someone else's summary, you would realize that the P-51B and later had serious direction stability problems both in turning maneuvers and in a dive. The F4U was rated as having the best stability and control in a dive. Second in best overall stability and control and first in nicest harmonazation of controls. Also from reading exerpts from other souces quoting the fighter
conferance you may believe the Mustang was voted the number one fighter A/C for 25K and under. IT WAS NOT. The F8F Bearcat had 30 votes the P-51D had 29 and the F4U-1D had 27.
Also there were 4 additional F4U votes for the F4U-4 and F2G models which only a few pilots were allowed to fly. So if this is the case then why is the F4U-1D such a dog in AH?
Please use facts in your arguments this time Vermillion to dispute mine. I know there were
not many changes in the airframe from the -1 to the -1D. I have the BOOK!
The reason I am not disputing any claims for the performance of the Niki is because I do not have and either do you difinitive information on the flight test. But I can tell you as I did in my previous e-mail to read Fw-190 workhorse of the Luftwaffe.
There is plenty of flight test data on the Fw-190A-5 vrs the F4U. Again a much faster climber than the A-8 which was heavier.

I throw the gauntlet at your feet.
And your baby seal picture is disturbing.
What kinky website were you on when you picked that off huh? Anyway I want you to dispute these items with real data. And tell
your brother in-law Francis I said hello.

F4UDOA

[Vermillion]

LOL!!! Dancing around facts? Well, at least I post facts, data, figures, and dates.

All you have done is post your personal opinon that you feel that the F4U-1 is a dog, some totally inapropriate statistical evidence (kill ratio's), and some pilots opinons from the fighter conference.

To be honest, I think the F4U in Aces High already easily outhandles the P-51, and the other planes just like you described in the above post.

In my opinon, you just don't have enough experience with this flight model and your just getting outflown. Simple.

Till you come back with some kind of hard data or test that shows that the F4U-1 has flaws in the Flight Model, I'm done in this thread.

Basically I'm just sick of listening to your baseless whining complaints that the Corsair isn't some kind of uber bird.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[F4UDOA]

Geez,

Vermillion. You are the one telling me that I am wrong. If you dispute anyone of these facts I have posted from head to head flight comparisons then please dispute away. But all you are giving me are reprinted stats from some source three or four times removed from the actual data. Most of the specs available on warbirds today are way off. Over estimations of A/C performance. Especially the P-51D. The P-51 became an Uber Bird years after WW2. It's story became retold until it bacame untouchable through
mistated facts and figures. The Niki was a tremendous a/c but it's wartime performance is not reflected in AH because for one there is no real reliable data. And two the A/C was known to have severe handling problems by the pilots who flew it which are not modeled in to AH currently. You don't hear me screaming about the spitfire because everyone knows for a fact that it was the predominate dogfighter of it's day. Have you ever heard the expression about the Mustang "It won't do what the Spitfire will do, but it will do it over Germany"? Well in AH it is a long range Spitfire. The A/C models I have a beef with are as follows.

1. F4U-1D Climb and low speed handling
This a/c had a power on stall speed of 76mph
and a climb to 20k in roughly 8min or under.
Also this a/c was regarding as being extremely directionally stable. With virtually no aileron trim required to go from level to diving. This is not the case in the current FM.
2. P-51D This a/c could not climb as well as modeled. It took over 1200ft to leave the runway in a clean config and took roughly 8min to reach 20k. Also it was know to be directionaly unstable in high speed maneuavers were the a/c is yawed.
3. The Fw-190A-8. The A-4 model was an excellent climber however the A-8 incorperated many additional weight gains to the A/C. It's climb and wingloading are overmodeled.
4. The Niki fly's with almost no torque effect on takeoff and vitually no trimm or rudder required with a two thousand hp engine. It also display's none of the adverse stabilty conditions it had inherant to it.

[juzz]

1. AH F4U-1D takes roughly 8 minutes to get to 20k.
2. AH P-51D also takes about 8 minutes to get to 20k.
3. AH Fw190A-8 takes around 8 minutes to get to 20k. (10 minutes of WEP is a good thing   )

100% power, 100% fuel:
F4U-1D - 8'42"
P-51D - 8'20"
FW190A-8 - 8'43"
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When the light was right it was actually possible to see the 30mm(1.18ins) shells in flight. - Heinrich Beauvais(Test Pilots, W.Späte).

[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-01-2000).]

[Fishu]

F4UDOA: ummh.. I tried out F4u, it turned with spitfries at low speeds..
Something wrong in the picture?
I don't think F4u turns with spitfries, definetly not when slow (maybe with spitfrie XIV but...)
I keep F4u very very fine now, could be downgraded a bit with its awesome turning radius. (bybye spit dweebs, u guys losing even for B-26 in turning race soon, you guys better get those magic stars on the wings)

Fw190a8 climb overmodelled? ohhh.. give me a break.. I climb barely 2500fpm to 20k, and needle drops below 2000fpm before 20k.
Btw. Fw190a8 has also more HP compared to earlier ones, which makes up with extra weight.
Major changes in A-8 should be have more armour, outboard MG151/20, better engine with more HP.
If you go downgrade climb rate of Fw190a8, it doesn't climb anymore like fighter  

[Curly]

 Good Cod. Fishu? Is F4UDOA a long lost brother of yours??  
 Amazing how blind faith makes one look so foolish.  Hey F4UDOA.....

 ..... <spooky hand wave>.....

   It's a conspiracyyyyyyyyy!!!!!

[F4UDOA]

Well Juzz if you say so I'll have to take your word for it. It seems the last time I tried to meter my climb in an F4U vrs a P-51
I was left in the dust. The F4U's climb best climb angle varies greatly from a P-51 in that the P-51's best climb speed is between
160 and 170mph. The f4U is approx 144mph.
This differance is because of the airframes being designed for different missions. The
F4U is a carrier based fighter/intercepter
originally which would require it to climb at a higher angle to intercept incoming A/C.
The P-51 took almost 1300ft to get of the runway and would climb at a shallower angle
at higher speed for longer ranging missions.
When I a alt x to auto angle climb the best I can do is a 200mph 2200fpm climb which doesn't reflect the climb of an intercepter.

Why your F4U was turning with a Spit of any
flavor I don't know Fishu. The only time a F4U should turn a spitty is at 200knt plus turns were the the spit won't bleed energy like the F4U. Remember if the spit driver doesn't chop throttle he won't drop his speed and will keep a very large turning circle.
In flight test against the zero the F4U-1d
the zero could gain a tail shot in four turns. The F4U with flaps could stay with the zero for a quarter turn with the use of flaps
at 200mph but would then loose speed and the zero would gain very quickly. The spitty shouldn't be to far behind the Zero in turning. And as far as the climb of the Focke Wolf A-8. I would rather see an A-4 in this game anyday. It was the best of the Wolf's until the D-9. But the A-8 still should not be able to out climb or run away from the F4U
on the Deck. Maybe my E state is bad or maybe my load out was heavy. But I don't think so...

F4UDOA