Not seeing the forest for the trees

[Getback]

Gotta remove yourself from the "win the war mentality".I have to say in doing so myself has given me a breath of fresh air. The "teamwork" and camaraderie people share when they take on the task of winning the war is great when things are working their way by bases being taken and maps reset. What happens when the noob that drives the goon drops troops over the Field? The mission gets busted and what happens when another chess piece decides to horde back their bases denying the reset?...things get ugly, you start blaming eachother for not porking bases, that spies rule the skies and so on.Taking another approach to the game by learning ACM and trying to hold your own against numbers does provide you with the outlook that you blame yourself for any mistakes. Even if you want to believe that the one friendly didn't check your 6 or you got HOd..The truth is you put yourself in that position and its up to you to learn from it.

Should Hitech remove himself from the "win the war mentallity"? He set the game up.

[FALCONWING]

Dunno...my evolutionary path was:

discover a game that let me pretend to dogfight like i always dreamed
>read every manual/bbs site
>fly a spit because growing up in England made me wish to
>die a thousand times
>join a squad because they were nice to me and helped me
>die a thousand more times
>discover my frame rate was about 10
>save up money and build a good computer
>get alot better overnight because i can now see tracers and aim better
>get very good at 1v1
>get very good at 1v2
>follow AW thru all its dying phases
>get kind of bored of "furballing" all the time
>watch all the original squad guys move on to other games
>became defacto C.O. and rebuilt the squad
>almost quit
>move to AH and discover VOX
>start having a lot more fun because of the social interactions/missions
>still play because of the social interaction while getting to kill things in the setting of ww2

Realize that in order to enjoy missions, landgrabbing etc you have to be willing to fly alot of hours...i think part of what makes guys move towards ACM/furballing at the tail end (which confuses me...i mean why not get good at the beginning??? lot of resources/trainers to help you) of a career is that time constraints/boredom become more of a factor. If your not going to fly at least an hour to two hours at a time why would you do anything but look for quick fights?  I remember in the beginning I was logging 6 hour nights...going home over lunch to play....having it on my computer at work and gunning with the sound off (joystick would have been to obvious)...now im lucky to log on 3-4 nights a week

Honestly there is something illogical about not trying to be the best fiter you can be from the getgo...I understand that we all take different paths....but anything competitive I have done in life (tennis, soccer, chess etc)I tried to be as good as I could could before I joined a club or entered comeptition...but if the other pathway is what most of you took I accept it at face value..

Its the same forest...we just like different trees...
guys who like controlling cv's/taking bases/sneaking bases/winning wars are probably more strategically minded and see those accomplishments as successess,don't need individual recognition to have fun....

guys who prefer "furballing"/acm probably have more time limitations, prefer more individual combat experiences, get more satisfaction from shooting someone down then seeing a base change hands,prefer individual accolade over group accolade...

The only thing i don't like is the absolute negativity that is permitted/expressed towards folks who prefer one aspect of the game over the other.  It goes both ways i may add...look at Batfink's current post...

Also the bad news for the "pure" ACM is that they are usually one foot out the door...older BK's, older muppets, Guppy and CO etc are all examples of folks who have slowly left the game....and it is a shame...unless they become trainers/special events folks etc and have another way to channel their love for the game they just disappear...

[Bronk]

Also the bad news for the "pure" ACM is that they are usually one foot out the door...older BK's, older muppets, Guppy and CO etc are all examples of folks who have slowly left the game....and it is a shame...unless they become trainers/special events folks etc and have another way to channel their love for the game they just disappear...

Yea why have they left the game? I don't think it was because of the lack of "horde".

[FALCONWING]

Yea why have they left the game? I don't think it was because of the lack of "horde".

I think every thing has its lifetime...im personally shocked that I'm still here 12 years later...there are many other games: Everquest, Tribes, Poker, etc that I HAVE left during this period of time...

I dont know how old you are but I am 39...I was 27 when i started...I now have four kids and my oldest is 13 yo...travel sports, vacations, work, meetings, investments, the wife etc. have slowly eaten away at my time AND I am now wishing to spend more time with my kids before they are gone as well.  Heck I'm 40 next month...my own life could use a little more attention...so my timeplaying AH is steadily decreasing...

I'll hazard a guess that some of these folks began to choose personal time over game time and finally arrived at a point where the satisfaction was more doing other things...I'm pretty sure if I didnt enjoy the guys or have them...then dogfiting would not be enough to hold me here...nor would basetaking hold me here...its the fellahs in my squad that keep me logging in...without that interaction why not have all the planes be AI?

[Bronk]

I think every thing has its lifetime...im personally shocked that I'm still here 12 years later...there are many other games: Everquest, Tribes, Poker, etc that I HAVE left during this period of time...

I dont know how old you are but I am 39...I was 27 when i started...I now have four kids and my oldest is 13 yo...travel sports, vacations, work, meetings, investments, the wife etc. have slowly eaten away at my time AND I am now wishing to spend more time with my kids before they are gone as well.  Heck I'm 40 next month...my own life could use a little more attention...so my timeplaying AH is steadily decreasing...

I'll hazard a guess that some of these folks began to choose personal time over game time and finally arrived at a point where the satisfaction was more doing other things...I'm pretty sure if I didnt enjoy the guys or have them...then dogfiting would not be enough to hold me here...nor would basetaking hold me here...its the fellahs in my squad that keep me logging in...without that interaction why not have all the planes be AI?

Orrr they became sick of hordes avoiding each other  not finding quality game play.

Just for the record falc.. I'm 39 also. Started when AW was on aohel.

[NoBaddy]

Since we have brought Hitech into the conversation, didn't he set the game up for winning the war and base captures. Isn't that part of the overall strategy. Don't furballers etc feed off the folks that attempt captures?! I think that was clever of Hitech to do so.

Well, if you check around a little bit, you will find posts wherein HT states that the game is about the fight. All the other aspects of the game...captures, bombing strat, etc., are there simply to give people something to fight about. Unfortunately, what passes for strategy in AH these days is usually either outnumber the crap of of them, sneak up on them and/or destroy their ability to fight. In point of fact, all of those "strategies" run counter to what HT says the game is supposed to be about.

It isn't that those things need to be removed from the game. The problem lies in the fact that the game is "out of balance". Far too many use those "strategies" far too often. If these "strategies" were food...AH would be heading for a coronary!!

[WMLute]

Should Hitech remove himself from the "win the war mentallity"? He set the game up.

Some food for thought here Getback...


The Quote HiTech was replying to...

Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.

HiTechs reply...

This is a false assumption.

The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.

HiTech

What is really sad is just how many players go out of their way to avoid combat.  And as you see from the above quote, the game was designed around combat.

There is no "winning the war".  You just get a new map and the war continues.

There is "winning a fight" though.


(And isn't there an even better quote from Doug about this subject?  I'm sure Murdr will have it)

[Stang]

I'm DONE with these forums the useless mindless chatter is like ch200 times 10 anytime anyone puts a chesive thought together that person gets ridiculed for his thoughts maybe someday you dopes will grow up and realize the world never mind AH does not revolve around you.

I'm sure someone will have something to say about this post knock yourselves out i will no longer read or be involved in it.

I just realized why in the first 5 yrs of playing this game i never came here.

So when someone posts something that isn't a cohesive argument, contradicts itself multiple times and is just silly, we aren't supposed to comment on that? 

[FALCONWING]

What is really sad is just how many players go out of their way to avoid combat.  And as you see from the above quote, the game was designed around combat.

There is no "winning the war".  You just get a new map and the war continues.

There is "winning a fight" though.


(And isn't there an even better quote from Doug about this subject?  I'm sure Murdr will have it)

I see this typed a lot Lute...but I doubt anybody wants to avoid "combat".  They are probably trying to avoid "failure".  I would argue that "furballers" who fly high and in fw's or ponies in a group are "trying to avoid combat" as well using your definition...i doubt they would see themselves in that light.  

As for basetaker's, Any small group should be able to hold a a base as long as hangers stay up...a goon at any alt is a sitting target...if the goal of a "strategic" player is too capture a field then they do what they see as the most expedient/high likelihood of success means to do it.  I would say that the same is true of a "ACM guy" who gets his value from killing a lot of folks and returning safely.  

You are suggesting that if HTC did away with basetaking (I would like this personally) and instead had strat targets that meant something instead of being score pads then over half the current population would quit...

There were hordes in AW BEFORE you could ever take a base...I guess human nature is to optimize your chance for success as you define it for yourself....I remember in AW having to up capped fields because there were only 2 to choose from...all others were taken during the day by 2-3 guys.  It sucked.

AND griefing others is unfortunately human nature too...remember the aircraft factories  

[Simaril]

...snip...

A net result is that they lose interest....Still, many are unwilling to apply the required effort to build skills. So, they cancel their account and move onto another game where they will repeat the entire process.... A smaller percentage will make the effort. They will improve and begin to enjoy the air to air aspect of the game. Most will never be great pilots, but they are always striving. Those constitute the bulk of the game's long time veterans. Yet, they are still in the minority.

Grizz provides a reasonably valid evolutionary path (although I would push out SA nearer ACM):
Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz

...snip...

My regards,

Widewing

Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.

First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.

For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.


<S>

Simaril
Dave

[bj229r]

I see this typed a lot Lute...but I doubt anybody wants to avoid "combat".  They are probably trying to avoid "failure".  I would argue that "furballers" who fly high and in fw's or ponies in a group are "trying to avoid combat" as well using your definition...i doubt they would see themselves in that light.  

As for basetaker's, Any small group should be able to hold a a base as long as hangers stay up...a goon at any alt is a sitting target...if the goal of a "strategic" player is too capture a field then they do what they see as the most expedient/high likelihood of success means to do it.  I would say that the same is true of a "ACM guy" who gets his value from killing a lot of folks and returning safely.  

You are suggesting that if HTC did away with basetaking (I would like this personally) and instead had strat targets that meant something instead of being score pads then over half the current population would quit...

There were hordes in AW BEFORE you could ever take a base...I guess human nature is to optimize your chance for success as you define it for yourself....I remember in AW having to up capped fields because there were only 2 to choose from...all others were taken during the day by 2-3 guys.  It sucked.

AND griefing others is unfortunately human nature too...remember the aircraft factories  

I can believe that part, at least. That mindset doesn't lead to any sort of advancement, though

[FALCONWING]

Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.

First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.

For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.


<S>

Simaril
Dave

Outstanding post

Every hour spent in AH is an hour I must deduct from something else...it is great to be volunteer staff at anything you like...some of us prefer to do it outside of AH...church, coaching, PTA, etc., parenting, painting etc. 

The other point he misses is that MANY of these self appointed ACM guys are no better then the guys who don't try to excel at it.  They point at others and say they don't know ACM and they are no better.  I have been called out to the DA many times....most recently by a BK who said he was DFC and was going to spank me because i had dared to insult widewing. He said he would post the films in the O'Club so others could laugh at me.  He lost and it really wasn't that close...the films suprisingly haven't been posted....and I hadn't been to the DA to duel since Creton left...

[moot]

The game is about combat.  Games are something you can play with, interact.  It's not interaction if the pixel airbase you're pixel-warring against doesn't offer any suspense, doesn't put up a fight.  A fight doesn't have to be ACM.  Much like in reality you can wage a war without firing bullets, e.g. with economics (markets), with demographics (birthrate zerg rush), ideology (religion, etc), so in the game you can "play" combat with tanks or planes or strategy, mass dropping troops or whatever.   But there's always an interaction versus some opposition. That opposition has to have some means to put up against yours, that's what competition is. If there's no opposition to interact with and compete against, the game isn't combat, it's a one sided monologue and boring. You are sitting at your desk not taking any risks, your pixel victories are shallow and meaningless, it's a waste of time even for a pixel leisure. 

Once again!  The rant on real estate oriented squads isn't that they tend towards the strategic end of the combat spectrum (I get a kick out of it myself, like Widewing and others say), it's that they often deny any combat, any interactivity, any game.  That's fine in real war.  This isn't a real war.  The fight here is the value, not just who has the last capture.  Because these captures are just pixels, there is no finality as real life has.  Every wednesday the LW arena resets.  Everytime the "war" is won in an arena, it resets. Back to square one! Ad infinitum, or until HTC closes down. The only real undeniable victory is a victory that allowed for and defeated every single attempt the enemy can make.  Anything else is a fluke.

Merely hitting someone who doesn't know you're there is nothing to brag about.  You don't brag or feel pride in winning against a weaker opponent, e.g. women, kids, cripples.  Sports and war of all time have always been about overcoming adversity. David and Goliath for example. Flattening a base before 2 whirbles and 1 clueless dweeblet can roll an La7 isn't "adversity". It's Goliath rigging David's meager little sling and stones beforehand and stomping him come show time, and bragging about it. All the "ACM guys" are saying is to setup some real fights with actual combat, not some cheap land grab devoid of it.

Widewing's post nailed it.  NOTICE the part where he accounts for the fun and value of PROPER strategic gameplay.  Strategy and Tactics go hand in hand.  The "ACM guys" is a strawman.  We're (or I anyway) not arguing that big/strat oriented squads are evil.  Just pointing out how they've watered down proper combat.

[moot]

Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.

First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.

For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.


<S>

Simaril
Dave

You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket.  Less means to combat means less combat, less chances of being able to jump into any given furball (for its own sake or to win a base), less time surviving and having fun while surviving, less of everything that's fun.  ACM isn't some starchy formal un-fun dogma, and it's not black magic either.  It's more marbles in your bag, it's extra dimensions of freedom that improves the amount of fun you can have, the same way extra pieces and rules bring Chess above the level of Checkers and TicTacToe.  The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment.  It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success.  Denying this is a mistake.

[grizz441]

The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment.  It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success.  Denying this is a mistake.

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