Fighting Spitfires

[uptown]

I don't know how.

[Bruv119]

I don't know how.

uptown gets it,  you dont fight them in a pony,  you run until the cows come home, then get him when he is deadstick out of fuel  .

If others get involved thats even better shoot him when he is turning with someone else.

Guys like Skatsr are just deluded thinking a pony can possibly do anything else 

[Oldman731]

Guys like Skatsr are just deluded thinking a pony can possibly do anything else

Heh.  Wonder if someone can get Skatsr to post here.  The question is an honest one and deserves a better answer than most of us can give.

Fact is, a 1v1 in your situation is difficult for the 51 because the Spit, even a Spit 5, will always out turn you and, after a few turns wear your energy down, will outclimb you as well.  Your advantages are better speed and better high-speed handling, and dropping one notch of flaps on the 51 will - just one time - let your pull your nose around to get the shot that you need.  Try staying a bit further away from the Spit than you would another plane - perhaps 500 yards, instead of 200 or less.  Do low yo-yos to keep your speed up, try to avoid climbs.  At high speeds I think the 51 rolls better than the Spit, and you can do some of these on the top or bottom of your yo-yos.  If you get close to a shooting position, drop that notch of flaps and see if it pulls you around.

That said, I think most competent Spit pilots will win the 1 v 1 fight against a 51 that doesn't HO (which I haven't addressed, because using the HO won't make you a better pilot, even if it wins this one fight).  That's fine, practicing this kind of fight is how Skatsr got to be so good in the 51, and how others got to be good in planes that are at an objective disadvantage.  Worst thing that happens to you is that you lose the fight and have to take off again.

- oldman

[uptown]

Skat would say pretty much the same thing I said. Turn around and kill the guy. Always,always,always put your nose on the bad guy. You won't get any better at fighting by running away..period. ALL spits can be out turned by yoyos. Use the yoyo to cut their corner. If you need full flaps, by all means do it. Pull your convergence in to get the biggest bang for your buck in close. There's so many things that dictate the outcome of a dogfight. Skatsr is good because he can fly the 51 on the edge, is a good shot and can judge E well. You make just one mistake and he gets guns on you, you're dead.

[BnZs]

You can be very successful with the P-51D, just as long as you avoid Co-E fights with more maneuverable, better climbing fighters (including the P-38s).

My regards,

Widewing

This from a guy who knows the Mustang and the game in general rather well. That about says it all doesn't? If you defeat a Spit who started 1.5K back on your six with controlled closure in a turning fight, he is either a noob or left his brain in the hangar that sortie.

This isn't to say you never engage Spits, but when your top speed is over 20mph faster than that of the Spit, there is no reason not to engage on your own terms, where a positional or energy advantage can be coverted into a least one snapshot opportunity.

Uptown: You speak as if the Spit can not take advantage of 3 dimensional geometry himself. There is no placard in the Spitfire's cockpit saying *Warning: This airplane can only be flown in flat Luftberry turns*.

Guy who mentioned HOing: I find Spit16s are more likely even than P-51s to HO. Twin Hispanos and all that. *Especially* when they see you have cut an angle on them and are going to get a snapshot opportunity, they like to just honk back on the stick harder to swap ends and fly at you guns blazing.

[Anaxogoras]

Sometimes you see advice here that assumes you're a better pilot than the guy in the better performing plane.  Sometimes that might be the case and the information will be useful, but it doesn't address the heart of the issue.  I wish more of these discussions were approached with "Assuming equal pilots..."

[B4Buster]

Need to watch out, Spit 5s will surprise you sometime.

[uptown]

When I go into a fight I do consider I'm the better pilot. You have to have confindence in your plane and abilities. If not you'll be running everywhere all the time. BnZs advise to the guy was run away and come back in a spitfire basically.That's the kind of mind set that sucks in this game.Learn to use what you got. Don't come at me with all these stats as excuses of why you don't want to fight. People come to this bbs all the time and complain about running ponys and what advise does the OP get?.....run away or climb to outer space until the guy breaks off from boredom.
I get on here and tell the guy to turn and fight, and I'm wrong because WideWing says so?   Well I got news for ya sports fans, 90% of the spit pilots around here don't fly very well. Several do, but most don't. I kill 3 times as many spits in a 51 then kill me and I don't do that by turning tail and running.

[Steve]

Just a few minutes ago I was happily playing about in my P-51, staying above 5K and really just flying it safe in order to get a feel for it.
I ran into a lower alt spitfire 5 and made a mistake on the merge. There were other cons in the area and there was a friendly close enough to me that I thought he was going to go after the spitfire, so I dodged his first attack and ignored him to look around the battlefield.  Only to spot the friendly diving off to go shoot at another P-51 3K distant, leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.

I immediately zoomed back up to alt, something close to 8-9K I don't recall exactly.  But the Spitfire followed me just enough to start tossing rounds over my nose.  I pulled into a right-hand climbing spiral figuring he's got to be at a lower E state than me and a right hand turn will bleed him faster than it will me and I'll be able to stall him out. Only he kept his spitfire 600-800 between my 4 and 5.  He couldn't out-climb me, but I couldn't pull sharp enough to stall him out.
Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.

Needless to say we get to 20,000 feet and he's still there.  Just close enough that I can't turn into him but just far enough away that he can't hit me.  I also notice there's a P-38 and 109 climbing up to join the fight against me.
Since I can't shake the spit I put my nose down and run away, easily outrunning him and the other pursuers at altitude.

I dislike having to run away like that, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm wondering if there was anything I could have done.  If I hadn't been low on gas I probably would've stuck with it and kept climbing, and dodging until he ran out of gas.  I know enough about spits to know they eat gas like crazy.

Is there really anything else I could have done?

Gosh where to begin.
First off, assuming you were in a D stang, spiral climb to the left. You'll be fighting the torque of the motor going to the right.

 Why did you figure the spit5 would be in a lower E state than you if he had been on your six and CLOSING?  

Dodging until he ran out of gas? Arrrrgh!!!

20K!!!   Arrrghh noooooo!

Here's a very simple trick to add to your bag next time: The guy  is in a spit5, you are in a mustang. He's going to have his throttle mashed because he's worried about losing you.  If he's closing, he's set up. Nose down a little(make him think you are running) but close your throttle, maybe even all the way. Consider a notch or two of flaps. That spit is gonna still be balls out trying to get a shot before you get away. As he closes to guns, a simple aggressive scissor with some rudder input will keep you from building up speed at the rate he does and will keep you out of a gun solution against 99.9% of pilots. Remember, he's in a slow plane and doesn't want to let your "fast" pony get away so he's not looking for you to slow down relative to his speed. Very quickly you are going to have a spit flying out in front of you. At that point, shoot him and begin looking for your next victim.

[Hoffman]

I'm still learning the D pony.  I haven't figured out what it can do when and where yet.

I figured he was at a lower E state because the last time I had seen him he was alot lower than me, I glanced away to view the rest of the battle-space and then he was co-alt and 1.5 behind me.  That he was closing while I was at a relatively fast speed  had me thinking that he was going faster than he really was.  Turning to the right would bleed me of speed and I'd have to fight the torque but so would he.
I figured that me being in a D pony would have better handling and energy retention in a right turn than a Spit 5.

I'll discuss more after class.

[Steve]

leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.

I answered your question based on the above quote.

figured that me being in a D pony would have better handling and energy retention in a right turn than a Spit 5.

This is incorrect. As you spiral and get slow, the spit5 would handle better and have gentler stall characteristics.
I gave you an answer based on the  scenario you presented in your original post. *shrug*

[Rolex]

I just want to add something to Steve's (good) advice. He's spot on about reading and anticipating the mindset of the pilot on your six. A strange thing happens to many people: when we're defensive, we tend to be more relaxed and have our brain in gear better than when we're offensive. We're trying to think our way out the predicament we just got ourselves in. The bore-sighted bandit on your six is flying on adrenalin and you can make him overreact.

Be aware of it next time you're offensive and notice that adrenalin can make you more hamfisted. It's like you're flying the plane by emotion and not with your head. Use that awareness against him.

[FYB]

Just a few minutes ago I was happily playing about in my P-51, staying above 5K and really just flying it safe in order to get a feel for it.
I ran into a lower alt spitfire 5 and made a mistake on the merge. There were other cons in the area and there was a friendly close enough to me that I thought he was going to go after the spitfire, so I dodged his first attack and ignored him to look around the battlefield.  Only to spot the friendly diving off to go shoot at another P-51 3K distant, leaving me alone with a Spitfire 1.5 off my 6 and closing.

I immediately zoomed back up to alt, something close to 8-9K I don't recall exactly.  But the Spitfire followed me just enough to start tossing rounds over my nose.  I pulled into a right-hand climbing spiral figuring he's got to be at a lower E state than me and a right hand turn will bleed him faster than it will me and I'll be able to stall him out. Only he kept his spitfire 600-800 between my 4 and 5.  He couldn't out-climb me, but I couldn't pull sharp enough to stall him out.
Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.

Needless to say we get to 20,000 feet and he's still there.  Just close enough that I can't turn into him but just far enough away that he can't hit me.  I also notice there's a P-38 and 109 climbing up to join the fight against me.
Since I can't shake the spit I put my nose down and run away, easily outrunning him and the other pursuers at altitude.

I dislike having to run away like that, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and now I'm wondering if there was anything I could have done.  If I hadn't been low on gas I probably would've stuck with it and kept climbing, and dodging until he ran out of gas.  I know enough about spits to know they eat gas like crazy.

Is there really anything else I could have done?

I had this problem (i was in a spitfire mk VIII) yesterday only it was a 109G-6 i was chasing and he had the dumb idea of turning his plane until he stalled downward giving that chance for me to blow his engine and leave him to die. Its highly unlikely you can out turn the spit and it has an average speed and high climb rate. It would of been smarter to put your WEP on, dive down and get away while you still can.

-FYB

[Karnak]

Since everytime he tried to shoot at me he missed I figured I'll just keep him there and drag him up to 20,000 feet where he couldn't breathe, wait for him to flutter and then go after him.

A warning about this line.  A lot of people think P-51 = high alt and Spitfire = low alt.  You were right about that for a Spitfire Mk V and a Spitfire Mk I or Seafire Mk II as well, but it would have been iffy going through the teens for a Mk VIII or Mk XVI.

A Mk IX or Mk XIV breaths just as well as the P-51 up there and you don't want to be in a P-51D at 25,000ft tangling with a Spitfire Mk XIV.

[Steve]

A warning:you don't want to be at 25,000ft .

fixed.