Question for Pyro

[fats]

Verm,

I thought no MW 50s were actually used on A-4. No idea where I heard that, someone posted a reference to it before CK.91 on ICIBBS, and no idea what their reference was.


//fats

[Vermillion]

Hmmm ok   , just going by what the books I own say.  But we all know they have been wrong in the past.

Here's where I got it from.

That book I listed in the above post says:

After production of over 500 Fw190-A3's, the Fw-190A-4 variant began to make its appearance in late 1942.  The Fw190-A4 differed from the -A3 only in the addition of a methanol-water power boost system (MW50)to the BMW 801-D2 to achieve added power under the rated altitude of 5000m (16,000ft), and a replacement of the radio with a newer and more powerful unit.

So what was different then? Just the radio?

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[funked]

I've read the following:

No MW 50 on any Fw 190A.

MW 50 on Fw 190A-4 onwards.

MW 50 on Fw 190A-8 only.

But none of these are from primary sources - I read this in books.

Weretiger is working with the German documents, so I tend to believe what he says.

As far as the engine variants of the Fw 190A,
I believe Fw 190A-1 and A-2 had the BMW 801C which ran on B4 87 octane fuel.

For the A-3 the BMW 801D was used, which required C3 96-100 octane fuel.  There was a higher compression ratio and a new supercharger system which neccesitated the higher fuel grade.

For the A-4 and subsequent models the BMW 801D-2 was used, which added provisions for MW 50 injection.  I believe these provisions were also used for the petrol injection.


[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-10-2000).]

[wells]

Although the A4 'could' have used it initially (and may have been retrofitted), there was an apparent delay until late '43, early '44 for MW50 useage on both the 190 and 109.  I'm just guessing here, but the 109 was alot slower than the Fw down low and probably got priority on the system.  If the 190 had MW50, speeds at ground level would approach 380 mph, meaning mostly ground attack variants of the 190 would get top priority there as well.  Nothing could catch the 190 at low level until the Typhoon came along!  Also, the climb rate on a 9500 lbs 190 with MW50 would be close to 4500 fpm!  

[funked]

Wells, I have seen the petrol injection system mentioned several times in conjunction with the F and G models.

[juzz]

What I've read basically says:

Fw190A-4 - BMW 801D-2 engine modified to allow MW 50 usage.
Fw190A-8 - MW 50 kit installed. Ie: 118 litre tank behind pilot.

Sooo, I guess what that means that the A-4's engine could use MW50, but the storage tank and plumbing etc. wasn't there. The A-8 had the tank and plumbing etc. installed, but that doesn't necessarily mean MW 50 was actually used.

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Well I for one think it would be a hoot to see 190 pilots have to choose between the three in the Ordinance section.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

[weretiger]

hello
The power boosting on the fw 190 is a nasty topic

first the weight of a fw 190 A8

an empty weigth of 3198
with 520 liters= 400 kgs
with the back-seat tank 115= 85 kgs
2*mg 131, 475 rnd= 164 kgs
2*mg 151, 250 rnd= 214 kgs
2*mg 151, 140 rnd= 159 kgs
a john doe and chute=100 kgs.
(note the the john doe uk is only 200 lbs)

will give you 4320 kgs aircraft,a common mesurement is 4365. that is comming form rounding, petrol weight and munition mix.
nb this is 500 kgs more that a A4 A5.
4683 with disposable tank.

I am almost certain of that those weight. They are confirmed by several geman testing and the doc the Verm sent me (thanks)
The speed test has been done for this type of aircraft.


A8 R6 with WR 21
add 273 kgs
that is 4593 (4638) or 4434 (4489) without the extrenal guns.
a8 r2 (with mk108 and 55 rnd)
rougly +115 kgs

A8 R3 (mk103 in gundolas and 35 rnd)
rougly + 300 kgs

A8 R7 (sturm armor)+ 111 kg =4430 (4470)
+ extra tank + 318 kg=4748 (4794)
extra armour + 200 kg = 4630 (4670)
+ extra tank + 318 kg = 4948 (4994)

A8 R8 (r7 + r2 )+ 115 kg= 4545 (4585)
+ extra tank + 318 kg= 4979 (5024)
if you add the armour= we are around 5.2 tons.


As far as the power bosting was concerned.
it is very difficult to say.
I am not quite sure when that extra emergency power was added (fuel injection)

I beleive Gm1 was used. It was petty simple to install and add around 200 kg (fuel+tank+pumps)and it is mentioned quite often in reapitualtive documents.
For the Mw50 well it is more obscure. test has been done, that is sure.
I can not tell if it was used in operation or not.
I am quite sure it was not delivered with it
at least up to the A8 with TU (i may have well been part of the power eggs).
The dodgy thing is that there is some reference to it being use but was it in test was it in operation, was it with the bmw801 TU, TH,TS....


 

[combat23]

Nothing could catch the 190 down low....Except the P51 -P51a ..Then again it depends on your deffination of Catch. The 51's had a comparable speed down low.

see ya on line

[SIFTER]

D.(Luft)T.2190 A-8 Fw 190 A-8 Aircraft Handbook
Technical description N0. 284
 Fw190 A-8 Fighter (Focke-Wulf Avaition Corporation 11-28-44)
Fuselage auxilliary tank: ......After Aug-Sept 1944 all A-8 aircraft will be delivered with the auxiliary tank fitted. If required, instead of the 115 Ltr (25.3 gal) fuel, an unprotected Methanol-water (MW 50) tank of either 115 Ltr or 140 Ltr (30.8 gal)capacity, or a GM 1 tank of 85 Ltr (18.7 gal) capacity, can be installed. At the present time, however, it is planned that the standard A-8 will be produced only with the auxillary fuel tank.

Increased emergency power: Commencing in July 1944, all Fw 190 A-8 aircraft will be fitted with the 'emergency power unit'. By overiding the supercharger boost regulator, this system increases the boost pressure, on take off and emergency power, at the low supercharger setting, from 1,42 ata to 1,58 ata; and at the high supercharger setting from1,42 to 1,65 ata. The resulting increase in maximum horizontal speed is about 22km/h (13.6 mph) at the low setting, and about 25 km/h (15.5) at the high setting. Due to the danger of the engine overheating, this system must not be used for more than 10 minutes at a time.
GM1 installation:The fitting of the GM1 unit in place of the additional fuselage fuel tank is basically feasible: but, in the FW 190 A-8 series is not normally done. It can be used at altitudes above 8 km (26,250ft)and gives a speed increase of about 58 km/h (36.0 mph) at climb and combat power.

The accompanying chart in the book shows (with the new 'july/44' raised supercharger pressures)at 408 mph max at 18,500 feet. And tapering back to 351 mph at 31,000 feet(maximum listed). The ETC 501 bomb/fuel tank rack drops the speed from 7.5 mph to 10. mph depending on alt. This is with a painted and polished plane. This is straight from the hores mouth.   The engineering department at Focke-Wulf avaition Bremen.

[wells]

Awesome SIFTER!  July '44, the magic number!

Now, when did a8's start rolling off the line?  Let me guess...June '44 and we have the first one modelled in AH!  

[fd ski]

 

Originally posted by combat23:
Nothing could catch the 190 down low....Except the P51 -P51a ..Then again it depends on your deffination of Catch. The 51's had a comparable speed down low.

Reality check !!! How about Spit LF IX,  Typhoon, Spit XIVe for starters ?



------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[SIFTER]

The book says April of '44. June probably the time its presence was felt. Hey Vermillion that Grinsell/Watanabe book is one of my favorites too! There is a new book out on the Ta 152 from Shiffer. Focke-Wulf Ta 152. By Dietmar Harmann. It has mucho details. No Color illustrations from Watanabe though  . Put in Focke-Wulfe Fw190
(with the e on Wulf)at BN.com. They have best price. Great book!

[weretiger]

sorry
i stupidly created a new thead.
called "may be a stupid idea,but"
sorry again

[leonid]

combat23's comment:  

Nothing could catch the 190 down low....Except the P51 -P51a ..Then again it depends on your deffination of Catch. The 51's had a comparable speed down low.

If referring to the A series, then this is incorrect.  The La-7 was also capable of catching the Fw 190A low.  And in a dive.  Think the La-5FN could catch up with a 190A low too, but not in a dive.

------------------
leonid, aka grisha
129 IAP VVS RKKA



[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 01-20-2000).]