Author Topic: Perceptions of fight quality  (Read 5450 times)

Offline Ciaphas

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1955
      • DethKlokDave
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2009, 09:17:16 AM »
There have been a lot of valid points made so far..

I think that if there is a horde circling around a base that has either just been captured or an existing base that was just raided they are wasting time and could be used else where in the "war effort", unless a new raid on the base in question is immanent.

as far as the HO'ing topic, I think that depends on the situation as well. IF you are in a furball defending against a possible air cap than you need to do what you have to do to break the siege. If you are incoming on a single E/A then I say make a pass to assess the enemy and the turn to engage only after you have attained a little separation.

on to the topic of showing up to a fight after your allies have decided that it's warmer in the tower than in the air, here is what I have to say. If you are that guy who thinks he's John Wayne and decides that he can safely and wisely drop in to a fight and place himself as the victor in a 1v2, 1v3 or 1v whatever mentally than you are placing yourself in a situation that requires you to do what you have to do to survive and shows your opponents (in most cases) that you make poor decisions and you deserve what you get.  

While this is just a game many of us like to make it as immersible as we possibly can. This can be from using period call signs, formations, landing patterns, bombing runs with proper escort, CAS missions or what ever else that was historic to the WWII period of flight. We are always are going to deal with those that are run and gunners and those that think they are generals and command the war effort, so what you can do to alleviate the impact that they have in the game is to educate them. You can take a new pilot, one that has just installed the app and just got his first stick. When he takes off he is going to be flabbergasted. To many times do I hear useless banter flung at these guys or you see one pilot making some grave decisions that are affecting the many and they usually get the same treatment. Why not send them a polite PM stating the reasons for the discontent? People respond a hell of a lot better to kind, constructive and clear statements.

for instance: Pilot A moves a CV on to a beach head and is being pummeled by the shore batteries. Pilot A might not understand this and is only thinking of having his/her  guns at the opposing base. Pilot B should let them know that it was a mistake to move the CV to it's current position but should do it in a manner that does not belittle Pilot A, it should also be stated in a way that would educate the person in a constructive manner.

There is a training corps for AH II that is effective from what I hear but that is not enough. The real knowledge comes from the veteran players. Take the time to pull someone aside and teach them what they are doing wrong, you may find that most have no idea that they are making mistakes.

Just my 2-cents!

Cheers,
Ciaphas

« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 09:20:37 AM by Ciaphas »
10.(Jabo)/JG 26 Nuisance Raids Scenario


Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2009, 09:52:08 AM »
I'm sorry....

on to the topic of showing up to a fight after your allies have decided that it's warmer in the tower than in the air, here is what I have to say. If you are that guy who thinks he's John Wayne and decides that he can safely and wisely drop in to a fight and place himself as the victor in a 1v2, 1v3 or 1v whatever mentally than you are placing yourself in a situation that requires you to do what you have to do to survive and shows your opponents (in most cases) that you make poor decisions and you deserve what you get.

While this is just a game many of us like to make it as immersible as we possibly can. This can be from using period call signs, formations, landing patterns, bombing runs with proper escort, CAS missions or what ever else that was historic to the WWII period of flight.

Pure garbage on both counts.

WW2 fighter aviation is full of tremendous accounts of bravery, some widely known others hidden in relative obscurity and some totally unknown. "John Wayne" was nothing other then an attempt to put real bravery in a context the average person could understand, IRL sometimes the Duke got out but often he didn't.

For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as Leader of a Section of Six Fighter Planes in VMF-112, during aerial operations against enemy Japanese forces off Kolombangara Island in the Solomons Group, 31 January 1943.

Taking off with section as escort for a strike force of dive bombers and torpedo planes ordered to attack Japanese surface vessels, First Lieutenant DeBlanc led his flight directly to the target area where, at 14.000 feet. our strike force encountered a large number of Japanese Zeros protecting the enemy's surface craft. In company with the other fighters, First Lieutenant DeBlanc instantly engaged the hostile planes and aggressively countered their repeated attempts to drive off our bombers, persevering in his efforts to protect the diving planes and waging fierce combat until, picking up a call for assistance from the dive bombers under attack by enemy float planes at 1,000 feet, he broke off his engagement with the Zeros, plunged into the formation of float planes and disrupted the savage attack, enabling our dive bombers and torpedo planes to complete their runs on the Japanese surface disposition and to withdraw without further incident.

Although his escort mission was fulfilled upon the safe retirement of the bombers, First Lieutenant DeBlanc courageously remained on the scene despite a rapidly diminishing fuel supply and , boldly challenging the enemy's superior number of float planes, fought a valiant battle against terrific odds, seizing the tactical advantage and striking repeatedly to destroy three of the hostile aircraft and to disperse the remainder. Prepared to maneuver his damaged plane back to base, he had climbed aloft and set his course when he discovered two Zeros closing in behind. Undaunted, he opened fire and blasted both Zeros from the sky in short, bitterly fought action which resulted in such hopeless damage to his plane that he was forced to bail out at a perilously low altitude atop the trees on enemy-held Kolombangara. A gallant officer, a superb airman and an indomitable fighter, First Lieutenant DeBlanc had rendered decisive assistance during a critical stage of operations, and his unwavering fortitude in the face of overwhelming opposition reflects the highest credit upon himself and adds new luster to the traditions of the United States Naval Service.

 FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT
President of the United States



You want to get "immersed" in the realities of WW2 COMBATaviation go wade into a mess of red with a few good friends. Now you can also get immersed in WW2 stateside training and practice call signs and landing patterns...just like they did in BF Oklahoma.





"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2009, 10:37:41 AM »
Anaxogoras/Gavagai,

What is you perception of the quality of this fight?

http://www.mediafire.com/file/idyznnmyzmf/perception.ahf
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Ciaphas

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1955
      • DethKlokDave
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2009, 11:39:58 AM »
Quote
You want to get "immersed" in the realities of WW2 COMBAT aviation go wade into a mess of red with a few good friends. Now you can also get immersed in WW2 stateside training and practice call signs and landing patterns...just like they did in BF Oklahoma.

When a single person enters a fight while severally out numbered and he dies he is considered a fool of sorts but if he wins he is considered brave. that ideology makes no sense as the initial act of entering such a situation is foolish to begin with regardless of the end product. Often times those that did enter that type of situation lacked the understanding of the whole war effort. There are exceptions to this but were far and few between but for the most part they were considered reckless and out of the ordinary.

There is one thing to turn on the face of an overwhelming enemy while on a mission or raid and it's something completely different to be the only friendly in the air and dive in to a gaggle..
10.(Jabo)/JG 26 Nuisance Raids Scenario


Offline haasehole

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
      • http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/The13thMidwestPilotGroup/
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2009, 11:43:33 AM »
 I dont know about quality fights  I'm a no skilled tard but I dont seem to have any trouble finding kills/deaths but i dont mind deaths  :O  if they are ack hugging I'll get a squadie to watch my 6 and up a 190 a8 and go deack it. I'll even tangle with a few eny ftrs like i said i dont mind death's.I'll even up a couple times if there is a light cap on a field. If they have a hard spawn/hanger camp i'll up a jabo and pop em with some eggs. I think with the variety of this game its easy to find a fight dont know if its a good fight probably only a few are but I guess its what you can stir up  :aok  :salute
~GELU~CRUOR~IUGUOLO~o2b1ace~
             13 Midwest Pilot Group
                  WD40 - F.S.O.

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2009, 11:50:56 AM »
When a single person enters a fight while severally out numbered and he dies he is considered a fool of sorts but if he wins he is considered brave. that ideology makes no sense as the initial act of entering such a situation is foolish to begin with regardless of the end product. Often times those that did enter that type of situation lacked the understanding of the whole war effort. There are exceptions to this but were far and few between but for the most part they were considered reckless and out of the ordinary.

There is one thing to turn on the face of an overwhelming enemy while on a mission or raid and it's something completely different to be the only friendly in the air and dive in to a gaggle..

I understand the immersion factor, but where I'll dive into a 1 vs 2, or 1 vs 3 and have fun while supplying fun to others, where you while flying away will be..... just flying away.  Seeing it's a game, I'll stick to "playing" and having fun.

Offline waystin2

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10165
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2009, 11:51:23 AM »
I dont know about quality fights  I'm a no skilled tard but I dont seem to have any trouble finding kills/deaths but i dont mind deaths  :O  if they are ack hugging I'll get a squadie to watch my 6 and up a 190 a8 and go deack it. I'll even tangle with a few eny ftrs like i said i dont mind death's.I'll even up a couple times if there is a light cap on a field. If they have a hard spawn/hanger camp i'll up a jabo and pop em with some eggs. I think with the variety of this game its easy to find a fight dont know if its a good fight probably only a few are but I guess its what you can stir up  :aok  :salute

Hello haasehole,

I think you have a good point and touched on a good subject here.  Exactly what type of quality fight are folks looking for?  Is it in a plane only?  A single enemy only?  The list of qualifiers could go on and on.  For example...
I find plenty of quality fights, but not all of them are in a plane, and certainly the greater portion of them are not against a single enemy.  What say the rest of the community about this?

Have a great day,

Way
CO for the Pigs On The Wing
& The nicest guy in Aces High!

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2009, 11:56:34 AM »
I dont know about quality fights  I'm a no skilled tard but I dont seem to have any trouble finding kills/deaths but i dont mind deaths  :O  if they are ack hugging I'll get a squadie to watch my 6 and up a 190 a8 and go deack it. I'll even tangle with a few eny ftrs like i said i dont mind death's.I'll even up a couple times if there is a light cap on a field. If they have a hard spawn/hanger camp i'll up a jabo and pop em with some eggs. I think with the variety of this game its easy to find a fight dont know if its a good fight probably only a few are but I guess its what you can stir up  :aok  :salute

I don't see any reason to kill ack, tho I will. The reason the ack is there is to protect those upping from the base. Well I'm ok with them upping, let them get a few "K" under them and build a bit of speed. They will be much more fun to fight with that way. Those that hide in the ack.... lets say we add a timer, you launch, and you have 2 minutes to get out of your own ack or it kills you for the coward you are  :devil Well maybe that should be in the wish list thread.

Me, I'm looking for any fight....minus the "gang tards" If I'm over a fight 1 vs 1 I ask if they need help. If I'm over a fight 2 or 3 vs one enemy I don't bother to look at it, I'm not needed there. If you see me in on a fight with more than a couple guys, it is because I was the lone guy on him and he is either THAT good, or my aim has hit its usual suckage, but once in, I don't stop till he's down or I am. A little common curtasy by other will help cut down on the gangs and will show the new guys a cleaner way to fight. Cutting back on the horde will then lead people to learn more about ACM and BCM because they won't be able to hide any more, which in turns improves game play for everyone.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 12:03:21 PM by The Fugitive »

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2009, 12:01:41 PM »
I rarely fly Doras, but I will say that I had Spitfires running from my D25 last week on more than one occasion.

lol  I had a C-Hog running like a schoolgirl from my P-40E this week and an La7 flopping like a fish trying to get away from my P-40B.   :rofl

I bet neither thought they'd be overmatched when they engaged.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Becinhu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2009, 12:10:59 PM »
lol  I had a C-Hog running like a schoolgirl from my P-40E this week and an La7 flopping like a fish trying to get away from my P-40B.   :rofl

I bet neither thought they'd be overmatched when they engaged.

I have 3 planes that seemed to like to do the fishflop when I get on their 6, as rare as that is. First 2 ar 190s a5 and a8 and then the La-7. I do think a8s are the worst though. It is fun to throttle down and saddle-up and let them snaproll themselves into the trees too.
412th Braunco Mustangs OG
412th FNVG FSO
80th FS "Headhunters" MA

Offline Saurdaukar

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8610
      • Army of Muppets
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2009, 12:20:29 PM »
I think Ill just let Snaphook speak for me for the remainder of this thread's life.

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2009, 01:01:37 PM »
You know what's really funny? All the talk on this board about the good ol' days and These Kids Today and what have you cut be cut and pasted into any one of about four different boards I follow intermittently on hobbies ranging from Cowboy Action Shooting to movie prop/replica collecting.

IIRC, I started playing AW in 1995 or 1996 and by the time I'd been in it for 3 months you heard all the same complaints.

Gavagai is right - the game may change, but the biggest change is the perception of the player.

As for my perspective, here's a few things I've noticed:

1) Anyone who complains about the behavior of a "newbie dweeb" who wouldn't fight when the complainer tried to jump him with a 262 or F4U-4 and a 5k alt advantage needs a good whap to the head with a clue-by-four. You think newbs flying uber planes is the problem? Well, when was the last time you saw a newb in a 262 or Tempest? Of course most of the vets don't stick with perked planes all the time, but if the newbie is getting slammed by much superior planes every so often, how can you blame him for taking the best ride he can, looking to fight at an advantage, and running when he doesn't have one? What else does every 262 do?

2) In a similar vein, if you're that good of an experienced vet, instead of whining about how "these kids today" - the ones with the .05 k/d ratio - aren't taking on a bigger challenge, why don't YOU look at it as a challenge for yourself? They don't play the way you want? Well, you don't play the way THEY want. Why do you think you're right and they're wrong? And if you're such a good pilot and they're such pathetic ones, why can't you beat them when they have alt and numbers?

3) 90% of this stuff boils down to SA. SA was by far the most important skill for a pilot in WW2, every top ace I know of said it was THE secret to their success. I understand that the game is not a strategic simulation, that base taking is just a frame to make battles happen, but saying the game is all about ACM and 1-1 duels to the exclusion of everything else is ridiculous. Everything here - incoming hordes vs. a few defenders, getting bounced from 10k up, getting picked and gangbanged, enemies running away when they lose the advantage - is a tactical scenario that every WW2 pilot had to face, and dealing with them was every bit as much a part of the pilot's skill set as ACM and gunnery, as was teamwork. No, this isn't a war or even a war simulation, but if you're trying to simulate the tactics, skills, and technical challenges of flying WW2 fighters, 1-1 co-e duels are a poor way to do it.

4) Because of # 3, I like the game the way it is now a heck of a lot more than I'd like it the way some here seem to want it - essentially, just a bunch of DAs. I'm glad to have a decent co-e 1-1 fight sometimes, but I'd get bored very quickly if that's all there was.

5) Two things that are worse than anything anyone here is complaining about: alt-monkeys and whole-country gangbangs.

Alt-monkeys are worse because you can't avoid them. If you don't like 40-plane base captures, just fly somewhere else from where they're attacking. At any given time there are always going to be more people not doing that than doing it, and the ones doing it are all concentrated on 1 or 2 bases. But you can't avoid the alt-monkeys (there always seem to be 1 or 2 everywhere), you can't fight them if they won't commit, and you know if you try to fight someone else you'll just get picked. And who wants to spend 90% of their stick time just climbing, climbing, climbing? (Apparently some people...)

The country gangbangs are bad because they don't just offer an alternative to fighting, they make it all but impossible. It's one thing to fight against the odds, but another when you've got 2-1 odds or worse everywhere on the map and, as if that isn't enough, escorted raids of 3, 4, 5 Lanc boxes at 20,000 feet porking every field within 30 miles of the front. It's all fine getting a big local advantage, but what's the fun of making it impossible for the other side to put up a fight anywhere on the map? And in a 3-player game the whole ENY system is just pointless, because the advantage depends on the interaction of the countries more than the raw numbers for any one of them. Getting slammed everywhere while still having a 20 ENY is just ridiculous.

5) Vulching uppers is establishing local air superiority. Vulching people trying to land is just pathetic (assuming that "vulching" = going in on a new target, not finishing off someone you were already fighting). What are you hoping to accomplish?

6) Has it occurred to you that that guy is "hiding in ack" because he knows if he doesn't he'll get slammed by someone from 10k up before he can get any speed and alt to fight? Because that's what happened to him within 10 seconds the last three times he left the ack? If you're complaining because you can't find anyone willing to enter a "fair fight," come down to his alt and burn off some e, then see if he'll come out of the ack. Or back off a couple of miles and let him come up. (And if someone in a faster plane goes through ack to lose you, all he's really doing is saving you both the bother of a 10-minute race you won't win anyway. If he's in a slower plane, you should have killed him before he got there, and if you don't want to deal with his ack, what are you doing so close it to begin with?)

7) Just don't tune to 200 unless you're amused by it. And if you do find it amusing, why complain about it?

F### the forum. Just fly.

That's all the ranting I can do today.  :furious    :cry    :rolleyes:    :salute

Offline AKHog

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 521
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2009, 01:17:03 PM »
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, because again I'm going through a 'burn out' and not having very much fun.

I've been playing off and on since Beta.

Back when AH1 first came out there were a few exceptional sticks, but most of us were just figuring things out. I would say the split was about 25/75, with about 25% of the pilots interested in ACM and looking for a good fight, and 75% clueless flying around looking for an easy kill and nothing more. The main difference, is back in the day there would only be 100-200 players online, and with just the nature of the maps and population density it was fairly easy to find good fights and avoid the hordes.

Now the main difference is not that pilots are worse, but simply a factor of the population density. With the huge amount of players it simply becomes harder or impossible to find good fights that soon don't turn into boring 5v1 or some other type of dweebery.

IMHO this has nothing to do with the quality of the players, but with the quantity of players. We simply have a lot more kids on nowadays that grew up playing Doom and want instant gratification, and are not as interested in learning ACM. The good sticks have just become diluted to a point where its hard to find a good even fight.

BTW, if you think the HOing is bad now, you should have been playing before the Chog was perked!
The journey is the destination.

Offline shppr01

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2289
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2009, 01:17:09 PM »
Last night above 214:
(Image removed from quote.)
Screen shot taken after these guys finished competing for one low bandit.

You hear a lot complaints about fight quality these days in Aces High.  Too many players will only fight when they outnumber the enemy, take head-on shots as a matter of course, run away, and just generally suck.  Apparently, the game degraded to this state of affairs long before I arrived, but there used to be a "happy time" (to borrow the apt phrase) when people sought out fights with better pilots to learn something, didn't gang (as much), didn't fly Typhoons just for the sake of front quarter shots, etc.

If the above is true, then it was probably only true when AH was still very small and you knew all the people you were fighting.  Warbirds was a small venue, and I remember the same complaints that you hear now about Aces High.  The scarcity of good fights was one of my motivations for a long break from online flight sims; I remember the frustration.  After years away from the genre, I come back and have fun.  Recently, I sometimes find myself frustrated with what I can find in the arena, and I've only been back at it since November '07, though my learning curve was mostly a de-rusting process (last night was a fun exception, and FSO always holds my interest).  Too much flight time is partly responsible for that, but I'm pretty sure there is a psychological change that a virtual pilot undergoes after so many kills and so many deaths.  What was fun previously becomes tiresome.

I'm confident that a lot of you would say that the fights are worse now than they were in, say, 2006.  And last year a lot of you would've said the fights were worse than they were in 2005.  I hate to break it to ya, but it's most likely you.  You have improved and are no longer satiated with easy kills.  You no longer shrug off getting ganged because you were able to get one or two before you died: a good challenge is neither too easy nor impossible to overcome.  It's high time you start looking for fun in places you haven't looked before.  Recently I've had the pleasure to get clobbered by the likes of m00t and battfinkv in the DA, and it was fun. :)  If you know there are some people you like to fight in the arena, invite them to start a battle in a less populated area, or start a 2vs2 in the DA.  Take a look at yourself and how much you've changed and improved over the years.  The fights are probably the same, but you are not. :salute
  I Have been in the game now for a couple of mos.
and I have yet to get my first kill in a fighter . that doesnt mean im willing to stoop to low tactics such as ganging or hit & run
I got on here to learn to fly and fight like a true pilot. so if you see me fight well and remember that some of us are actually trying to do it right  :rock
Ingame : Shipper

Never put your gun down to hug a grizzly.

Offline Scotch

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
Re: Perceptions of fight quality
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2009, 01:19:51 PM »
  I Have been in the game now for a couple of mos.
and I have yet to get my first kill in a fighter . that doesnt mean im willing to stoop to low tactics such as ganging or hit & run
I got on here to learn to fly and fight like a true pilot. so if you see me fight well and remember that some of us are actually trying to do it right  :rock

A couple months?  :frown:
Hey, if you see me in the arenas send me a message. We'll wing up and try to fix that for you. Turn you into a killer.  :aok
-AoM-