Russian opinion of Bf 109 vs Fw 190

[Anaxogoras]

Also, as they got closer to Germany and the later-model 190s kept close for Home Defense got into the fight, also might make a difference.

The same wiki article says the VVS pilots' impression of the 190D-9 was that it burned as well as the other 190s.

[Treize69]

Wiki also points out that John McCain loves chocolate milk.

[Anaxogoras]

Wiki also points out that John McCain loves chocolate milk.

I'm asking for evidence that either affirms or denies the article, and so what the article says about the D-9 is relevant.  Don't derail the discussion, please.

[Treize69]

Chances are if its on Wiki, it can already be considered discredited. Its about as reliable as wartime "intelligence" assesments of enemy equipment. I've seen stuff from alternate-history sites and events and stats that have been 'fudged' for fiction works show up on wiki as if is were 100% authentic. I don't even go there anymore. Its like the "Mad Magazine" version of the world- the more preposterous, the more likely it is to appear.

[Anaxogoras]

Chances are if its on Wiki, it can already be considered discredited. Its about as reliable as wartime "intelligence" assesments of enemy equipment. I've seen stuff from alternate-history sites and events and stats that have been 'fudged' for fiction works show up on wiki as if is were 100% authentic. I don't even go there anymore. Its like the "Mad Magazine" version of the world- the more preposterous, the more likely it is to appear.

It all depends on what sort of citations you can find for the article.  High quality citations from primary or reliable secondary sources usually make for a quality article.  For example, their articles on WWII aircraft usually rely on the same books and evidence that our biggest WWII buffs do.

This particular section isn't up to that standard, and so besides mere speculation, has anyone read about the opinions of the VVS toward the 190 vs 109?  I'm guessing not, otherwise I would already have heard about it.  The translated article is very interesting, however; definitely read it if you haven't already.

[Oldman731]

Really the only people who thought the 190s were "good" were the British with old Spitfires or Hurricanes.  

I don't have Caldwell's "JG 26" book with me at the moment - if you do, you can check me out - but here's the essence of what he reported from all the JG 26 pilots he interviewed:

JG 26 had three Gruppen.  By the time the summer of 1944 rolled around, one of them was equipped with 109s, and the other two had 190s.  The two FW Gruppen people were in reasonably good spirits at that point.  They were convinced that at low altitudes the A8 could outrun any other plane (Caldwell reported that they thought this regardless of what statistics they were shown), and that its high roll rate gave it "a useful maneuver."

By contrast, morale in the 109 Gruppe - and its losses - were the worst of JG 26, and kept on getting worse as the war continued.  The 109 pilots felt they were outperformed by nearly all the Allied planes, and their losses seemed to confirm this.

Now JG 26 was in a different position from the Reich defense outfits that were based further back from the front.  Those Geschwaders had the advantage of ground controllers and time to reach altitude, so they were fighting a different war.  I think I'm reasonably well-read on Western Front air operations, and I've never seen any evidence that British or American pilots thought that the 109 was clearly superior to the FW - in fact, my impression has always been just the reverse (Willi Heilman's book repeatedly makes fun of the "hated" 109s).  All of the sims that have attempted to duplicate WWII combat planes have rated the FW as a dog, so it isn't just AH2.  I have to conclude that the difference between real-life reporting and simulation experience is that actual air combat was markedly different from what we do here, and rewarded speed and firepower far more than those qualities are valued in a sim.

- oldman

[BnZs]

I don't have Caldwell's "JG 26" book with me at the moment - if you do, you can check me out - but here's the essence of what he reported from all the JG 26 pilots he interviewed:

JG 26 had three Gruppen.  By the time the summer of 1944 rolled around, one of them was equipped with 109s, and the other two had 190s.  The two FW Gruppen people were in reasonably good spirits at that point.  They were convinced that at low altitudes the A8 could outrun any other plane
(Caldwell reported that they thought this regardless of what statistics they were shown),

Faith in/willingness to push the BMW Radial to the limits and beyond?

  I think I'm reasonably well-read on Western Front air operations, and I've never seen any evidence that British or American pilots thought that the 109 was clearly superior to the FW - in fact, my impression has always been just the reverse (Willi Heilman's book repeatedly makes fun of the "hated" 109s).  All of the sims that have attempted to duplicate WWII combat planes have rated the FW as a dog, so it isn't just AH2.  I have to conclude that the difference between real-life reporting and simulation experience is that actual air combat was markedly different from what we do here, and rewarded speed and firepower far more than those qualities are valued in a sim.

- oldman

Visibility? Control function at high IAS?

[Anaxogoras]

I have to conclude that the difference between real-life reporting and simulation experience is that actual air combat was markedly different from what we do here, and rewarded speed and firepower far more than those qualities are valued in a sim.

This makes a lot of sense.  I wouldn't be the first one to say that the AH arena is a pretty good simulation of the Eastern front war, and a terrible simulation of the war over France and Germany.  Still the 190 is an effective killer in the arena, but most do not have the patience required for the hit-and-run tactics at which it excels.

A lot of the 109s on the Western front had the underwing gondolas in '44. I can sympathize with the pilots who had to fly those crates.

[Urchin]

Your logic is somewhat flawed in that nearly ALL of the planes in the game can be just as "effective" as the 190s when flown in the manner the 190s must be flown to ensure "effectiveness". 

Pretty much any plane with cannon can play the "orbit high and pick off engaged cons" game with success.  Hell, an 'pilot' with average intelligence and poor shooting abilities can be just as effective with 6 .50s if he knows how to set himself up with good shot opportunities. 

The only thing the D-9 brings to the table is the ability to outrun a good percentage of the planes in the arena, the A-5/8 can't even manage that any more.

[Anaxogoras]

Your logic is somewhat flawed in that nearly ALL of the planes in the game can be just as "effective" as the 190s when flown in the manner the 190s must be flown to ensure "effectiveness". 

Nearly all of the planes?  Come on, that's an exaggeration.  The Spitfire series can't roll in a dive (except for the XVI) and has a short ammo clip.  The N1K and F6F are too slow, and the Ki-84 loses parts past 450mph.  The 109's control surfaces become too heavy.  The 38J not only has compression issues at high speed, its ailerons become ineffective.  The LA series abhors altitude, and the Yak's ammo clip is too small for hosing down a maneuvering target.  Not to forget the Typhoon, it also sucks at altitude and has a glacial roll-rate.

That leaves the F4U, P-51, P-47, P-38L and 190 series, of which the A5 is still very fast compared to the midwar/earlywar planeset.  These aircraft roll well at high speed, and have enough ammo to allow the pilot to start firing a ways out in a BnZ guns pass.  I would still hesitate over the 38L, however, because, despite its dive flaps, the elevator becomes ineffective at high speed.

Edit: some mention should go to the C205, which has great diving characteristics, but which is probably too slow for an effective BnZ platform.

[1pLUs44]

When looking at Pokryshkin's kill record, the majority of his kills on fighters were on the 109, could either be  there were more 109s? Or just easier to kill them?

From Wiki:

Kuban

Pokryshkin's most significant contribution to the war effort and the most impressive kill record came during the battle for the Kuban region in 1943. The area east of the Crimean peninsula had seen heated air combat in the months that led to the Soviet assault on Crimea itself, where Kuban-based Soviet air regiments went against Crimea-based Luftwaffe Geschwader. Pokryshkin's regiment went against such well-known German fighter units as JG 51 'Mölders', JG 52 and JG 3 'Udet'. The area saw some of the most heated fighting of the Eastern Front, with daily engagements of up to 200 aircraft in the air. Pokryshkin's innovative tactics of using different fighter types stacked in altitude, the so-called 'pendulum' flight pattern for patrolling the airspace, and the use of ground-based radar, forward based controllers and an advanced central ground control system led to the first grand Soviet Air Force victory over the Luftwaffe.

In the summer of 1942 the 4th Air Army in which Pokrishin's was a part of received the first mobile radar stations which were tested in aiding over-water interceptions of German and Romanian aircraft, that proved highly successful.[citation needed]

In early January, 1943, 16 GIAP was sent to 25 ZAP near the Iranian border, to re-equip with new aircraft, and also to receive new pilots. many of these had to be ferried over from Iran. When there were delays in assembly by the Americans on the Iranian side, it was felt, by the Soviet pilots involved, that the Americans were willfully impeding the war effort. It was at this time that the unit converted onto the P-39 Airacobra, which when all had arrived, turned the unit into a 3-squadron Regiment. 16th Guards received 14 P-39L-1s, 7 P-39Ks, the very last of which was assigned to Pokryshkin, and 11 P-39D-2s. The unit returned to action on April 8, 1943. During this time, Pokryshkin was credited with ten Bf 109s destroyed. Pokryshkin was credited with a Bf 109 destroyed on his very first Airacobra mission, on April 9, 1943, and was only able to gain confirmation for two out of 7 kills on April 12, 1943, although scoring on the 15th, 16th, and 20th, with a score of four shot down during a single sortie on April 29th. Pokryshkin received his first HSU on April 24, 1943, and, was promoted to major in June, having become Commanding officer of his squadron, and also on June 23, 1943, exchanged his old P-39K-1, 42-4421 "White 13", for the famous - and, incidentally, unmarked by any victory stars - P-39N, 42-9004, "White 100", which he flew for the rest of the war, excepting the test of the Berlin Autobahn as a runway in Konstantin Sukhov's "White 50" which was much photographed on the occasion.[1]

One of the most famous engagements he was involved in took place on April 29, 1943. Eight of Pokryshkin's Airacobras were directed by ground control towards a large group of enemy planes. Three whole squadrons of the obsolescent Junkers Ju-87 Stukas were being escorted by a geschwader of Bf-109s. Attacking from the sun, a pair of P-39s attacked the fighters while the remaining six dove through the bomber formation, repeating the attack twice using Pokryshkin's method of swapping dive directions. Twelve Stukas were claimed shot down, with Pokryshkin claiming five.

In most subsequent fights Pokryshkin would usually take the most difficult role, attacking the leader of the German fighter escorts. As he learned in 1941–42, shooting down the flight leader would have a very strong demoralizing effect on the enemy and often would cause them to scramble home. On September 21, Pokryshkin was involved in another high-profile air engagement. This one happened at low altitudes right over the front line. It was witnessed by dozens of journalists and representatives of high command. Pokryshkin shot down three Ju-88s in a single pass, either showing off or overcome by hatred as he had just found out a close friend's entire family has been killed in German occupied territories. Only two kills were confirmed, the third Ju-88 being recorded as brought down by the explosion of the second one and not Pokryshkin's gunfire.

On August 20, 1943, Zaev, who had been the Unit Navigator, and then been promoted to Commanding Officer, and with whom Pokryshkin had strong differences, took measures to have Pokryshkin stripped of his HSU, expelled from the Regiment, and hauled before a tribunal! From 10PM that night until part of the following day, Pokryshkin, 298 IAP's Major Taranyenko, and the 16th Guards' Commissar, Gubarevim, and some "Osobists"(NKVD people!) were completing interrogations and investigations that lasted at least through the following day! Gubarevim, with difficulty, was able to clear Pokryshkin's name and reputation, and "Sasha" was thereupon awarded his second HSU on August 24th. [2]

Here's another one:

Aircraft flown by Pokryshkin

Pokryshkin started the war flying the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-3 fighter, in which he scored almost twenty victories. The unit was given the honor "16th Guards Fighter Regiment" in March, 1942.at this time, or soon after this, the unit received some Yak-1s, in which Pokryshkin also scored victories. In January, 1943 his regiment converted to lend-lease Bell P-39 Airacobras, which despite a persistent myth the Soviets never used in the ground attack role. Soviet pilots liked this aircraft, and found it quite competitive with the Messerschmitt Bf-109 and superior to the Focke-Wulf FW-190 at the low air combat attitudes common on the Eastern Front. Pokryshkin really enjoyed the 37mm cannon's destructive firepower, and had his own aircraft rigged so that the single button simultaneously fired both the main cannon and the 2 upper nose-mounted .50 caliber machine guns, synchronized to fire through the propellor (airscrew), in addition to the pair of .30 caliber machine guns mounted in each wing, outside the propellor arc and therefore unsynchronized. In his memoirs he describes any enemy aircraft immediately disintegrating upon being hit by the salvo. Pokryshkin and his regiment were repeatedly asked to convert to new Soviet fighters such as the La-5 and Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev's Yak fighter series. However Pokryshkin found La-5's firepower insufficient and personally disliked Yakovlev so he never did.

[Messiah]

From wikipedia

[Anaxogoras]

From wikipedia

Last time I checked it says the Earth is spherical, too.

Secondly, if the whole point of the thread is to ask if the article is accurate, and you come back with the notion that it must be inaccurate because it's at wikipedia, well, that's just a big fat instance of begging the question.

I hate to say it, but information from all sources needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.  We are too much in the habit of believing everything because it's from a reputable source, and disbelieving everything from another source because it contains some bad articles that are completely unrelated to the topic at hand.  In both directions, that's laziness in forming our opinions.

[Bronk]

Nearly all of the planes?  Come on, that's an exaggeration. 

Care to make a wager? I'm betting it could be done in an FM-2.

[bj229r]

Whats alts were the fights on the Eastern front? I'm assuming far less than the 25k over Germany and Britain. (Aside from that, the LW pilot has to be thinking if he bails out over that frozen tundra, dying of exposure is a likely outcome)


oops