30 Second Run Rule

[grizz441]

Last night 2 players were fighting and one kept "extending" to his 30 second limit, reengaging, and then extending again.  Well eventually, the poor guy trying to fight this extender got ganged.  30 seconds seems like quite a long time to be able to 'extend' for.  It seems like in an even fight when someone 'extends', 15 seconds should be tops.  30 seconds just causes the guy who is chasing him to unfairly get ganged because he can't get the quick kill and move on to the next fight. 

The time where 30 seconds of run seems adequate though is when you finish a fight maybe at 2k and another pilot comes in at 5.5k, with advantage.  You should be able to extend and try to equalize the E states.  Even in this case though, the guy with more E should easily be able to hunt you down and close on you well before 30 seconds.

Either way, the CM's can see when somebody is cheesin the 30 second run rule and where somebody is actually extending as a tactic to equalize E states.  I think the CM's should discuss this and figure out if there is a way to make a concrete rule change to address the issue. 

[BiPoLaR]

Last night 2 players were fighting and one kept "extending" to his 30 second limit, reengaging, and then extending again.  Well eventually, the poor guy trying to fight this extender got ganged.  30 seconds seems like quite a long time to be able to 'extend' for.  It seems like in an even fight when someone 'extends', 15 seconds should be tops.  30 seconds just causes the guy who is chasing him to unfairly get ganged because he can't get the quick kill and move on to the next fight. 

The time where 30 seconds of run seems adequate though is when you finish a fight maybe at 2k and another pilot comes in at 5.5k, with advantage.  You should be able to extend and try to equalize the E states.  Even in this case though, the guy with more E should easily be able to hunt you down and close on you well before 30 seconds.

Either way, the CM's can see when somebody is cheesin the 30 second run rule and where somebody is actually extending as a tactic to equalize E states.  I think the CM's should discuss this and figure out if there is a way to make a concrete rule change to address the issue. 

Thank you bro. i could not have said it better 

[grizz441]

AkDogg obviously saw what the player was doing to you BP and tried to intervene as best he could, but he was sort of handcuffed by the 30 second rule even fully knowing what was going on was cheesy and not in the spirit of Koth.  The rule needs to be sharpened up while at the same time not becoming so complex and subjective that people don't understand what they can and can't do.  It's a tough issue, but a candid discussion about the rule with the CM's in this thread couldn't hurt and might be productive in finding a solution.

[AKDogg]

I gonna play the devils advocate here.  Yes I saw what he was doing, yes I tried to intervien, Yes he eventually turned, but reason I didn't boot him or what ever is he was totally new to the event.  At the time, I didn't know he was trying to RTB to the base because I told him he was warping.  He did not know U can't rtb to base during KOTH.  Had I known that was his intensions, I would have told him to auger.  I thought he was just trying to extend but didn't know the 30sec rule.  The 30 sec rule I think is fine how it is.  KOTH is not a 1 vs 1.  What that means U have to watch your SA and expect someone to come in on U while u chasing someone.  Technically when running/extending for 30secs, U need to be alrdy turning before the 30secs.  If u wait to turn at the 30sec mark, u too late and technically have broken the rule.  With that said, U actually have only 20-25 secs to extend/run.

Yes I may have been wrong for letting the new guy slide as he had no Idea aparently what was going on.  As for you Bipolar getting shot down while chasing this guy is actually your fault, Lack of SA.  If I was chasing him and seen what he was doing and the fact he had no clue to what was going on, I would have broke off him before the other guy attack me to get setup for him.  Most people think KOTH has to be 1 vs 1 or U can't pick someone, ganging is not fair, etcc. and thats where they are wrong. 

Again, I as a CM, have to look at both sides of the fence, not 1 side.

[grizz441]

The way the rules are written right now, I comprehend it (and I'm sure most guys do) as you are able to extend for 30 seconds THEN have to turn.  I'm relatively new to koth and don't know if this is a reoccurring problem so forgive me for questioning a rule.  I'm just picturing in my head how it could be easily manipulated.  For example, one pilot extends for 30 seconds 5 times in a row waiting for the 3rd bad guy to come in and attack the guy who is chasing him.  Say BiPolar breaks off the extender to fight the other red and the extender immediately turns to pick Bipolar.  Well within the rules as is, but in the spirit of koth?  Probably not. 

I'm playing devil's advocate here also and the point I'm getting at is that there's no limit on how many times you can extend for 30 seconds in one fight.  The leash should grow tighter and tighter with each consecutive extension.  I recall PMing you last SatKoth also AKDogg about a similar situation with a repetitive extender, you dealt with it quickly.

[Vudak]

To play another devil's advocate...  Until we have event vets who can keep quiet and not interrupt until the rules have been completely read by the CM, and newbies have had a chance to ask legitimate questions, I don't think it's fair to give newer guys anything less than the benefit of the doubt and a little slack for their first event.

Really, if you've been to more than three KoTH's you have no reason whatsoever to key your mic until the CM's done reading the rules and had a chance to field *real* questions...  As funny as people's comments admittedly can be.

[TequilaChaser]

To play another devil's advocate...  Until we have event vets who can keep quiet and not interrupt until the rules have been completely read by the CM, and newbies have had a chance to ask legitimate questions, I don't think it's fair to give newer guys anything less than the benefit of the doubt and a little slack for their first event.

Really, if you've been to more than three KoTH's you have no reason whatsoever to key your mic until the CM's done reading the rules and had a chance to field *real* questions...  As funny as people's comments admittedly can be.

 

and the 30 second rule, as stated by AKDogg above, is "you must TURN by 30 Seconds" not extend 30 seconds and then turn........ this is also EXPLAINED THOROUGHLY at the beginning of each KOTH by the KOTH CM.......

I see no reason for a change.......

[grizz441]

and the 30 second rule, as stated by AKDogg above, is "you must TURN by 30 Seconds" not extend 30 seconds and then turn.......

You must TURN by 30 seconds reads to me as "After 30 seconds of extending you must turn."  That rule isn't specific enough to imply you must start your turn earlier than the 30 second mark.  If it said "You must be turned around by 30 seconds" , then that would be a lot clearer.

[BiPoLaR]

Yes I may have been wrong for letting the new guy slide as he had no Idea aparently what was going on.  As for you Bipolar getting shot down while chasing this guy is actually your fault, Lack of SA.  If I was chasing him and seen what he was doing and the fact he had no clue to what was going on, I would have broke off him before the other guy attack me to get setup for him.  Most people think KOTH has to be 1 vs 1 or U can't pick someone, ganging is not fair, etcc. and thats where they are wrong. 

Again, I as a CM, have to look at both sides of the fence, not 1 side.

no i had SA. there were others that were coming at me...so i broke off of him to fight them...i figured he was flying off in to the wild. then as i turned and starting fighting the other guys, he came in a picked me.


as far as the 30 sec rule. that is WAY to long. 10 15 secs max imo. Thats all the time you need

[mechanic]

There are two distinct types of extension I know of in KOTH.

1) When the extender has more speed than the attacker, and the natural move for setting up a win is to extend and re-establish an altitude advantage. This is a wise time to extend, as turning would only decrease your energy advantage and probably concede a shot.

2) When the extender is barely 600 yrds ahead of the attack and Co-E. This is not so much of a fair time to extend in KOTH. You are not going to win an advantage by extending when Co-E and just out of guns range. All you do here is prolong the danger for another 30 seconds, unless somehow the attacker makes a huge mistake.


either way, being the person who is extending is a weak possition to be in and surely not desireable to anyone who want to win a round.

my 2c

[grizz441]

2) When the extender is barely 600 yrds ahead of the attack and Co-E. This is not so much of a fair time to extend in KOTH. You are not going to win an advantage by extending when Co-E and just out of guns range. All you do here is prolong the danger for another 30 seconds, unless somehow the attacker makes a huge mistake.

Yeah this is the type of extending I am questioning.  The guy running is inevitably screwed and is just delaying his death.  It's just unfair to the guy chasing him who has a high alt dot looming in to the fight.  He's trying to kill the run dweeb with absolutely no plan and only hope of victory is that his attacker breaks off or gets picked.

Also batfink, another perfectly valid extention
3) The extender has Less E and less alt than the attacker and extends as an attempt to equalize E states.

[mechanic]

good point, dragging them down for a reversal for instance.


I think a good example of a skilled extension is TC when he flies koth. He is very quick thinking when it comes to recognising a bad possition. He will instantly avoid turning one degree further in the bad position and extend out to remerge within about 15-20 seconds. It is TC's decisive action to extend without a second of hesitation that makes the move effective way to reset and re-merge.
 Wasting time turning then having to run for 30 seconds is only because the moment to extend was not recognised soon enough, i would suggest. Once you have got too late to use any speed advantage in the extension even a new player is better off trying something in the vertical rather than running flat.

[grizz441]

good point, dragging them down for a reversal for instance.


I think a good example of a skilled extension is TC when he flies koth. He is very quick thinking when it comes to recognising a bad possition. He will instantly avoid turning one degree further in the bad position and extend out to remerge within about 15-20 seconds. It is TC's decisive action to extend without a second of hesitation that makes the move effective way to reset and re-merge.

I have no problem with this extending time.  I think as the run rule reads now, it's implicated that you can run for 30 seconds straight before having to turn where in reality, You must be turned around in 30 seconds.