Author Topic: The question (real pilots need not bother)  (Read 1699 times)

Offline Cougar68

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2009, 12:15:28 PM »
For some reason people seem to think that landing an airplane is some magical feat - it isn't. 

Excuse me while I laugh my arse off.  Landing an airplane is a delicate balance that takes time and dedication in REAL aircraft to learn.  Sims are a wonderful way to learn procedures and get a general look at how it may go down and real life.  But when it's real life with your butt in the actual seat, things are completely different.  I have thousands of hours in simulator time.  Greaser landings, navigating, managing systems, I was a pro!  Know what it taught me for my real life training?  Theories of flight, how the controls work, and familiarity with the gauges.  Everything else is different.  Why?  Because your life is on the line.  People act and react differently when death or dismemberment is a consequence. 

Here's a situation that may put it in perspective.  You head to a gun range, have a friend point a loaded weapon at your head while you target shoot.  There's your simulator.  The situation is there, you're going through the motions of shooting the gun, but you also know there's no way in heck that your buddy is pulling the trigger.  Your heart rate may go up and your accuracy may be a touch off, but it's all good.  Now imagine being at the gun rage when some lunatic walks up to you with his gun pointed at your head.  Think it may be a bit different?  Screw up and you die.  Puts a bit more pressure on ya eh?

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2009, 12:20:55 PM »
Here's a situation that may put it in perspective.  You head to a gun range, have a friend point a loaded weapon at your head while you target shoot.  There's your simulator.  The situation is there, you're going through the motions of shooting the gun, but you also know there's no way in heck that your buddy is pulling the trigger.  Your heart rate may go up and your accuracy may be a touch off, but it's all good.  Now imagine being at the gun rage when some lunatic walks up to you with his gun pointed at your head.  Think it may be a bit different?  Screw up and you die.  Puts a bit more pressure on ya eh?
Yes, but you'd have an exponentially larger chance of surviving than someone who's never touched a gun before.

Offline Cobra516

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 259
      • Virtual Thunderbirds
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 01:36:03 PM »
Excuse me while I laugh my arse off.  Landing an airplane is a delicate balance that takes time and dedication in REAL aircraft to learn.
I've been flying since I was about 6 (with my dad in our Cub), solo'd on my 16th birthday and got my license at 17, I know about flying - I also fly flight sims.  I know what you're trying to say. 

It's funny that landing a C-172 in real life and landing one in the sim seem quite a bit different to me, there's just more finess involved in real life, your hands/feet are working more on a breezy day than in the sim.  However, the 737 on MSFS and the Level D sim flew very similar, it's mainly because it is a much more stable aircraft and you're not dancing all over the controls in the flare.  Once you're stabalized on the approach you're set, the flare is quite easy.

I told you my story about how I landed the 737-200 Level D sim several times, and the only other experience I had was in MS Flight Sim (well, and in the Super Cub).  It's pretty evident that the flight sim experience helped me out quite a bit, I don't see how you could not agree.

 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 01:47:25 PM by Cobra516 »
Slipping the surly bonds.

"Ray" #3 Right Wing
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC

Offline Wingnutt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 01:47:32 PM »
Having done so a billion times in x-plane and MS-FSX with somewhat realistic controls (yoke, levers, pedals.. etc etc)  I dont know for sure if I could pull off a landing the captain would be proud of, but I bet I could get it down without killing anyone. 

Read around on some real flightsim forums, for example X-Plane forums, you can read what many real pilots think about the comparison between their real ride, and the ones presented in the sim. 


that being said, if anyone thinks they could land a corsair on a carrier because they can do it in aces high...  :devil
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 01:49:08 PM by Wingnutt »

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2009, 01:52:14 PM »
This question comes up every now and then and invariably some Microsoft pilot stands up and tell us he can handle it.  :rofl  The author of hte original article comes across as an arrogant ass. Despite all his supposed expertise he makes this remark:
Quote
And in real life, the copilot is the one who flies anyway.
. Making a stupid comment like that makes we wonder about the rest of his story.

Like Cougar, I laughed my bellybutton off at Cobra516's comment about landings.  No, landing an airplane isn't magical, it takes skill, training and practice. But even most experienced pilot screws up from time to time.

The fact that you flew a 737 sim  aged 14 proves nothing. The fact that you have thousands of Microsoft hours counts for nothing because the day you find yourself up there in the real thing, alone, scared and overwhelmed will be the day you realise you know nothing about flying an airliner. Landing any aircraft from a set up approach isn't that difficult. The real issue to getting the approach right as any pilot will tell you.

Let's set up a scenario, it's all happened and you approach the flight deck, past the stricken bodies of the crew. You sit down, heart pounding and take in the situation. You establish you're at FL370, you can see your speed and your heading. Now what? Where are you for one thing. You know you need to descend, you know you need to change heading to route to a suitable airport. Once you manage to descend you need to configure for landing. You need to know when you lower flaps, what speed to use on the approach. What if the weather is bad, it's at night, there's turbulence, crosswinds. What if the aircraft you're in, doesn't resemble the flight sim you were playing with. Which switch, does what? What is that alarm going off in your ear? It's an utter nightmare.

Now I'm actually a working commercial pilot with several hundred hours and I have 'played' with MS flight sim. In the aircraft I normally fly. I have occasionally found myself in a situation where a little tension fills the air, in cloud, with turbulence with the main Artificial Horizon and stand by AH having an argument as to which is correct and the stall warning chirping away. Your ears tell you one thing, your eyes another and the disorientation begins to kick in. You don't get that in MS FSX.  Never mind your mythical 737, could you take over if I fainted in fright?

No we'd both die, although the skydivers would probably get out. :D

The reality is that in all probability even a fairly experienced but non airline pilot would probably scatter wreckage all over the airport even if they managed to get that far. The Microsoft ace would do the same thing only sooner.

It's all a Walter Mitty fantasy. Having a fun day out in a 'real' sim is not the same as finding yourself actually sitting in a hurtling piece of metal at high altitude.

But it's fun to speculate, Interestingly it has never happened in reality. The closest was the Helios flight in Greece. With both pilots unconscious, the steward who happened to be a commercial pilot actually got into the cockpit too late after the aircraft ran out of fuel. It was too late and we'll never know if he would have managed to land it safely. But I wouldn't have bet on it.

Maybe someone should hire out a sim and ask for a random flight to be set up and then be dumped into the Captain's seat and left completely alone except for someone pretending to be ATC.

Offline Cobra516

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 259
      • Virtual Thunderbirds
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2009, 02:02:51 PM »
I fly a Super Cub, I can fly anything! 

I know what you mean but I really don't think it would be as challenging as you make it sound. 

Getting down wouldn't be a problem - don't stall it or overspeed it, pretty damn simple.  You've got spoilers out there to help get you down.  Configuring for approach wouldn't be tricky either, it may not get done in accordance with company OpsSpecs but you could make it work, get it slowed down, get the flaps and gear coming out and fly it on down. 

Center control would already tuned in, so if you didn't know where you were then ask for a vector to the nearest suitable airport.  They'd give you vectors all the way to the final approach course - the only thing you'd need to do would be keep the speed under control. 

I can see where problems might arise if you went IMC in your descent, someone who hasn't experienced that in the real airplane might very likely succomb to spatial disorientation.

The level D sim flys just like the real thing, complete with motion, it really isn't all that different - the fact that I was actually in the air with passengers back there wouldn't affect my flying ability.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 02:12:32 PM by Cobra516 »
Slipping the surly bonds.

"Ray" #3 Right Wing
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2009, 02:16:23 PM »
Excuse me while I laugh my arse off.  Landing an airplane is a delicate balance that takes time and dedication in REAL aircraft to learn.  Sims are a wonderful way to learn procedures and get a general look at how it may go down and real life.  But when it's real life with your butt in the actual seat, things are completely different.  I have thousands of hours in simulator time.  Greaser landings, navigating, managing systems, I was a pro!  Know what it taught me for my real life training?  Theories of flight, how the controls work, and familiarity with the gauges.  Everything else is different.  Why?  Because your life is on the line.  People act and react differently when death or dismemberment is a consequence.  

Here's a situation that may put it in perspective.  You head to a gun range, have a friend point a loaded weapon at your head while you target shoot.  There's your simulator.  The situation is there, you're going through the motions of shooting the gun, but you also know there's no way in heck that your buddy is pulling the trigger.  Your heart rate may go up and your accuracy may be a touch off, but it's all good.  Now imagine being at the gun rage when some lunatic walks up to you with his gun pointed at your head.  Think it may be a bit different?  Screw up and you die.  Puts a bit more pressure on ya eh?

Landing STILL isn't a magical feat. It is certainly difficult, and quite dangerous, but it isn't magic, and it isn't some insurmountable wall. I remember my first, after years of Sim practice. It was remarkably easy. Yes, I was freaked out. I was terrified. But having seen the runway before, having seen myself slide down that glide-slope on a computer screen before, It gave me a bit more of an advantage than a kid who had never done either before, because I knew what is SHOULD look like. When I was a little high on final, I knew it, because the runway didn't look as wide as it should when I passed over the first fence (I was so terrified I wasn't bothering with any gauge but my airspeed indicator and my variometer). I knew I needed to get lower, so I did. I was off center. I had seen that before in Sims. It took me a second or two to realize it, but I knew as soon as I got off center, something was wrong. It didn't LOOK right. As I floated down over the runway, I got that n00b temptation to flare WAY too early. Again, It didn't look right, so I held off for just a second or two more... I flared, felt a slight bump, and I was on the ground. My instructor was VERY impressed. I will gladly say I would not have done as well had it not been for years of playing flight Sims. There is a reason the Military uses Sims to train pilots. It's not just saving fuel, but it gives them the opportunity to experience situations over and over, to develop a mental picture of what it SHOULD look like, what it SHOULD feel like, so that if the begin to do something wrong, even if they cannot identify their mistake immediately, they know something isn't right.

Cobra: I'm curious, having spent so many hours in the air and in Sims, do you feel Sims are sometimes harder because of the lack of physical input?

except for someone pretending to be ATC.

And therein squats the toad. Maybe it's just me, but the very first thing I would do after assessing the situation would be to contact ATC and let them know what happened. This gives you a little advantage: YOU might not know the speeds and altitudes for this aircraft, but ATC can find out. They can, at the very least, radio you the numbers you need to aim for. As for heading, if you have worked with navigation equipment in the Sim and can get someone to find a sectional in the cockpit (Or better, a GPS) you can probably figure out where you are. Or, the easier route? Call the tower. These planes have transponders for a reason. They can most likely tell you where in god's name you are, and can direct you to a suitable field. Again, if you know how to read a sectional, you can do that yourself as well. If you fly the plane by the numbers on your dials, and you can line them all up, you have a pretty good foundation for a landing. You need to perform a function but cannot identify the proper switch: Tell the tower. Diagrams of the cockpits of these aircraft ARE available, and you can bet your arse that if ATC heard there was a plane being piloted by someone with no experience preparing for an emergency landing, they would FIND one of those diagrams. It will be difficult, yes, but so long as you don't get hit with some obscure function in the flare, it's not the end of the world. Better yet, find another MSFS guy on the plane and get him in the cockpit as a copilot. One of you focus on flying, the other focus on the knobs and buttons. As for the alarm? Ask ATC again, and look for the little flashing light. Chances are SOMETHING is flashing, and that at least gives you a basis for your guess. Again, this won't be easy, it won't be pretty, but it CAN end well. The key is remaining calm, which I grant you, actual pilots have a huge running head-start at. But you aren't alone, and just because you don't know some number doesn't mean you can't find out.

The level D sim flys just like the real thing, complete with motion, it really isn't all that different - the fact that I was actually in the air with passengers back there wouldn't affect my flying ability.

My super-Sim experience was with the Navy's P-3 simulator on Kaneohe Marine Corps. Air Base. I didn't have motion with it (They had shut that part down for maintenance) which made it INCREDIBLY more difficult, but otherwise it flew like the real thing, all the knobs where there, and I had a very sadistic pilot friend (Who flew the P-3, hence my having access to the Sim) who liked to randomly toss emergencies at me to see how I handled it, and his Bulgarian wife who was so terrified of flying she was having a panic attack behind me even in a non-moving Sim. My first landing wasn't pretty, but I got down. After 20 minutes of playing with gauges and being told (Via intercom, he wouldn't point and demonstrate) what the basic displays were, how to use the radio altimeter, the TACOM, etc. I was making almost perfect landings with terrible crosswinds, one or two gauges out, and a screaming Bulgarian woman in the Flight Engineer's seat.

Offline Cobra516

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 259
      • Virtual Thunderbirds
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2009, 02:30:59 PM »
Cobra: I'm curious, having spent so many hours in the air and in Sims, do you feel Sims are sometimes harder because of the lack of physical input?
Yeah that is certainly a notable limitation to PC flight sims.  Landing a Super Cub or C-172 in MS Flight Sim is quite a bit easier than landing them in real life.  It's also much harder to fly formation in a flight sim than in real life.

With heavier aircraft like an F/A-18 or a 737, the difference between MSFS and the Level D sim is much less pronounced.  Yeah it was quite a bit different at first in the 737 sim, the motion, the feel of the controls, the movement of the throttle quadrant - but I was able to get used to these differences very quickly. The Hornet sim was literally like flying a game, they are easy aircraft to fly - they have to be, so the pilot doesn't have to use all his attention to fly the damn thing, he can divert attention to other tasks. 

Having the HUD, flight path marker and AOA indicator makes it a no-brainer to land, as long as you know how those work together, and that is what Janes F-18 can teach someone.   
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 02:39:05 PM by Cobra516 »
Slipping the surly bonds.

"Ray" #3 Right Wing
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC

Offline vorticon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7935
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2009, 02:42:41 PM »
i'm confident in my ability to make sure the plane hits some farmers field instead of a urban area. if i can hit the runway, all the  better...who knows i might even get lucky and not kill everyone.

Offline Cougar68

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 600
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2009, 02:45:46 PM »
I'm not saying that experience in a flight sim wouldn't help, it absolutely would and it absolutely helped my own flight training.  I also think a well versed sim pilot would stand a decent chance of getting the airplane on the ground in a survivable way.  What I disagree with is the "it's not really that hard, FSX has trained me well" line of thought.  Landing is not magical, but it is a very difficult feat that requires concentration, training, and practice.  Landing a desktop simulator is one of the areas that it completely has wrong.  There is no feel, no seat of the pants, no short little blurp of wind to unsettle the plane a bit.  

I fly a Super Cub, I can fly anything!  
Surely you jest!!  :)

The level D sim flys just like the real thing, complete with motion, it really isn't all that different - the fact that I was actually in the air with passengers back there wouldn't affect my flying ability.

This statement alone tells me all I need to know.  If you actually believe that a few hundred lives in your hands wouldn't affect your ability, you need a reality check.  

Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2009, 02:53:22 PM »
I'm not saying that experience in a flight sim wouldn't help, it absolutely would and it absolutely helped my own flight training.  I also think a well versed sim pilot would stand a decent chance of getting the airplane on the ground in a survivable way.  What I disagree with is the "it's not really that hard, FSX has trained me well" line of thought.  Landing is not magical, but it is a very difficult feat that requires concentration, training, and practice.  Landing a desktop simulator is one of the areas that it completely has wrong.  There is no feel, no seat of the pants, no short little blurp of wind to unsettle the plane a bit.  

THAT I can agree with.

Offline Cobra516

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 259
      • Virtual Thunderbirds
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2009, 03:11:25 PM »
THAT I can agree with.
I concur as well.  But I still think that landing a 737 in MSFS is very much like the sim I flew.  Maybe I don't realize how much real life flying helped me fly the 737 sim? 
Surely you jest!!  :)
There aren't many other airplanes that are as challenging to land on a breezy day.

It's common knowledge that taildragger pilots are better sticks!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 03:17:40 PM by Cobra516 »
Slipping the surly bonds.

"Ray" #3 Right Wing
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC

Offline SKJohn

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 792
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2009, 03:48:14 PM »
The first time I heard this idea was in an article in (IIRC) FLYING magazine back in the 70's.  I think it was called every private pilots secret fantasy or something like that, the premise being could a PPL holder with just a background in GA light aircraft land an airliner if the situation arose.  Remember, back then PC's and MS FLight Sim were still a few years off.  I can't remember what the outcome of the article was . . .

Like others on this board, I started flying lessons at 15, soloed at 16, and got my PPL a few days after my 17th birthday.  I look at the question of Sims vs real-life backwards from the common point of view.  I feel like my background in RL flying helped me do better in Flight Sims when I eventually got into them.  Knowing how to read an altimeter, artificial horizon, airspeed, rate of climb/descent gauge, etc., made it easier to just hop in the sim and go.  The two main differences I notice that make sims somewhat ackward compared to RL are the lack of movement and g-forces for physical feedback, and the viewing system.

I've been lucky enough to get to "fly" in two USAF simulators - a T-38 and an F-16.  While I did ok in them and managed not to auger either one, I'm under no illusions that could just hop in either a/c for real and be successful - no matter how many hours and landings I've made in Falcon 4.0.  I'd be too nervous because when you crash and burn in RL, there is no "reset" or "fly again" button.

Oh well, enough of all this hypothetical talk of simulators and fantasy flight - it's time to get back to AH! :)

Offline cpxxx

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2707
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2009, 04:38:19 PM »
Well it is a fantasy and unlikely to ever happen. But my blood runs cold at the thought of Serenity's scenario of two MSFS 'pilots' up front.  :O As for Cobra's comment that F18s are easy to fly, tell that to the US Navy. I'm sure they'll explain their washout rate in training.

Interestingly a good friend of mine with about 400 hours flying time has just gone from flying a big single to the right seat of an airline Boeing 737-800. He would have a good insight into how different it is. Of course, he would have plenty of sim training before he ever flew the real thing but it's probably the closest you can get to getting an idea of what it's like. He owes me a drink, (I gave him a reference for the airline job). I'll ask him when we get together, that is if I can coincide with his roster.

Offline Cobra516

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 259
      • Virtual Thunderbirds
Re: The question (real pilots need not bother)
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2009, 05:26:02 PM »
As for Cobra's comment that F18s are easy to fly, tell that to the US Navy. I'm sure they'll explain their washout rate in training.
They are easy to fly - they don't wash out because they can't keep the damn thing in the air, they wash out because they fail to pass the various checkrides dealing with systems, weapons, tactics, procedures, etc. 

The flying part is easy, but being able to employ the aircraft effectively in combat is completely different and MUCH more involved than just steering the thing around the pattern.  Do you understand what I mean now when I say they are easy to fly?  It flys like a video game.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 05:34:13 PM by Cobra516 »
Slipping the surly bonds.

"Ray" #3 Right Wing
Virtual Thunderbirds, LLC