Author Topic: The jugfire (Read 8145 times)

Urchin · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2001, 11:20:00 AM »

I've never noticed the D11's performance to be anything outstanding (relative to the other 2 models). That said- the P47 IS an outstanding aircraft, in my opinion.

This is just a brief synopsis of how I think the Jug stacks up Vs. the German planes.

109F4- Jugs have speed advantage, firepower.
109 has turning, climbing.

109G2- Jugs have diving advantage, firepower. 109 has turning, climbing (sustained- not zoom. same with 109F4). Speed is fairly similar, Jug may have a slight advantage.

190G6- Got me. Don't fly it. I expect the Jugs would be able to turn with it, and have the speed advantage as well. The 109 would have an edge in sustained climb, and the 30mm would be nice for snapshots.

109G10- Jug has advantage in diving, firepower. 109 is faster, can outclimb. Turning ability is similar, I've both outturned and BEEN outturned fighting 109G10 vs. Jug. Jug will handle better at high speeds, but it bleeds E very quickly in a turn (more quickly than the 109). 109 has edge in low speed handling, IMO.

190A5- Jug has a slight speed advantage, 190 has a slight turning advantage (sustained- break turn is similar). Diving is similar, 190 climbs slightly better. 190 also has a much quicker roll, especially at 250-350 mph.
Firepower is similar, 190 has slight edge in snapshot ability due to the 4 20mm.

190A8- Jug has slight speed advantage, turning is similar. Climbing is similar as well. 190 rolls faster and has greater firepower with the 2x30mm cannon. I DO NOT enjoy fighting P47s in 190A8's.. especially when Frenchy is in the P47 hehe.

190D9- D9 is faster, climbs better. I'd guess the P47 turns better, if not, it turns about as well. Don't fly the D9 much, honestly don't know.

Also, about the P47D11 being a "jugspit"- I doubt it. I *think* what you may be seeing is the Jug turning inside of a spit at HIGH speeds, because the Jug will bleed off speed a LOT faster, thus bringing it down to the cornering speed quicker. I really doubt if the P47 can turn circles with the spits and nikis on the deck.

-ammo- · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2001, 12:11:00 PM »

First of all santa, dont get your feelings hurt..

The D11 will be adjusted as Pyro has stated and this discussion has been brought up several times...propelling this topic into to the whine category when it comes from you or other notoble LW flyers. We know it will be fixed. Dont throw your feined distress at me you knothead.

And as a sidenote, in my opinion the dora is just a little to better than what i expect a FW to be. But I dont know, never flew one. Only my perception.

Lastly, in any post you direct to me.. Never use Jesus Christ's Name in vain. I would appreciate it immensely.

<S>

ammo

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: -ammo- ]

Sancho · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »

I'm just wondering if any of you guys who feel that the -11 is overmodelled have done any testing. If you think something is messed up, lets see the numbers. I'm not trying to prevent further attention or scrutiny to this plane's alleged unusual turning ability, in fact I invite it.

If what you're saying is true the -11 should have better sustained turning rate than the spit. (That I'd like to see.) In fact, I think you'll find that the -11 will have marginally better turning performance than the -25 (my wager is 3% better) and the spit will be significantly better.

Buzzbait · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »

S!

Man the Luftwhiners never quit do they.

The USAAF did a comparison of a P-47D-5, (essentially the same plane as the D11 in AH) versus a captured 190A5. (190 was Jabo model with no outboard FF 20mm so lighter than standard 4 cannon model)

The comparison showed the P-47D-5 easily outturned the 190 in high speed turns at 250mph or over. Only at low speed (160mph minus) did the 190 have a turning advantage mainly due to its superior acceleration and power loading.

Another point to consider:

The suggestion is that the AH P-47D11 is underweight by 300lbs. That may be the case, although I don't know what figures AH are using as a basis for the aircraft's weight. (Would be nice to see all of the stats on all the aircraft so we know what the parameters of the FM are)

What is not considered in the above arguments is that all the 8th AAF Squadrons equipped with P-47's had the aircraft's 'toothpick' props replaced with the much superior paddle blade props in the first week of January 1944. This resulted in a considerably improved climb, zoom climb and acceleration and would more than compensate for the extra 300lbs.

The D11 we have here DOES NOT have the paddle blade prop.

Perhaps the P-47D11 should have another 300lbs added, but it should also have a paddle blade prop as an option.

The Luftwhiners always seem to get the latest and greatest version of their particular aircraft, (couldn't help but notice they got the MW-50 equipped FW190D, even though the FW190D came out in August 1944 and wasn't equipped with MW-50 until January 1945) so the USAAF should also get the aircraft which was the best performing P-47 until the P-47M.

Cheers Buzzbait

Hristo · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2001, 04:41:00 PM »

Against a decent Jug pilot 109 actually has less chance than 190.

If Jug stays fast, it can use high speed maneuvering and control authority to turn harder than 109 and gain position. Only when Jug pilot makes a mistake and fight drops to 200 IAS speeds 109 can do something.

190 is, IMO, better for fighting Jugs. It has the needed control authotrity and much needed firepower to bring the beast down. As for snapshots, I think Jug enjoys an advantage due to far greater effective guns range. OTOH, 4 Mausers are good for snapshots too (personally, I can't hit anything with .50 cals and Hispanos - too little lead

).

All in all, 190 vs Jug is a decent matchup. Beauty vs Beast.

On some occassions in H2H I have been able to turnfight Spits down low in D-11. However, I don't think I was slower than 250 mph IAS at any time. And .50 cals really hut Spits. I think my best was 4 kills with all spits coming down at me.

From those fights I learned that Jug retains E very very well, much better than 190A series. Dora is another story.

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]

Urchin · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »

I disagree, I think the 109 is better for killing Jugs, but then again it is what I personally am more comfortable in. I honestly don't think the 300 lbs. will make much difference one way or another. Of course, since people know it is 300 lbs. underweight now, they attribute things to that (like it retains all E, turns on a dime, etc, etc.)- and once the 300lbs. is added the Jug pilots will begin to say that it is so much less manueverable than it should be, etc. etc.

The Jug CAN and WILL turn inside of a LOT of planes above 300 mph. That is for ONE turn, as it bleeds off all the speed it had. Once that turn is over (or if the Jug misses his shot that pulling lead gave him), the Jug will be slow (the Jug doesn't accelerate all that well either), and if he continues to turn he is easy meat for anything that turns better than a 190A5.

I, personally, fought Frenchy in the DA. (He whipped me pretty good BTW, felt like a red-headed stepchild for a WEEK after that). I think everyone would agree that Frenchy is a GREAT P47 pilot. If you don't, go to the DA... you'll be coverted quick. He owned me pretty well in his P47 while I tried different 109s and 190s- and I outturned him in a SLOW flat turn on the deck, in the 190a5. By slow I mean I was at or below 200mph throughout the entire turn, start to finish. He pulled lead on me for 2 or 3 snapshots, but he missed and when he kept turning I pulled right around on his 6 in maybe another 2 revolutions (he started dead on my 6). The P47 may be a nice plane, but it CANNOT hold a sustained circle with a 190A5, much less a spitfire.

-ammo- · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2001, 05:14:00 PM »

yup frenchy is good, we are glad to have him

There are some other really good P-47 pilots in the 56th FG, that have different styles but are good inn their own right.

No way I have ever outturned a spitfire in a low alt furball. I avoid that like the plague. I try to fly the planes strengths..and that is not its turning ability. I think that maybe if the d11 doesnt behave like a small bomber and provide other pilots with an easy kill, they will whine. Some hot jug pilot pulls a spectaculer display of ACM and whips a LW flyer and burst their ego..and it begins on the BBS.

edited for spelling

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: -ammo- ]

Steven · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2001, 08:08:00 PM »

Timely topic because Frenchy handed my tailplane to me the other day. I saw a P-47 head-on and I was in a P-51B and thought we were about co-E and the little voice in my head said 'the 51 can't turn all that well but it should be able to keep or regain E quicker than the 47' and so I decided to go a couple circles with it. We were only about 10K maybe a little lower and I was quite surprised when I could not get any gain on him and ended up getting shot down. It ended up being Frenchy and I was so surprised things played out this way.

The other surprise of that same day was earlier when against you, Ammo. I was in a P51B and you were in an LA7 and we were about 10-12K and I thought, 'Aha! I heard that the LA7 doesn't accelerate all that well up here' and so too decided to go round and round with you and I could not gain. The really embarassing thing though is that you chased me to low level and I ended up crashing in the water and I don't think you ever fired a shot.

Anyway, I gotta find me some more P-47s and figure out just how to handle them (and so many others) in a 51B.

-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2001, 09:25:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin:
The P47 may be a nice plane, but it CANNOT hold a sustained circle with a 190A5,

Ooo where'd that idea come from? Drop a notch or two of flaps and that 190A5 will fall before it's guns.

Same with most 109 models, the exception being the 109F4.

I've flown all of them (109/190/P47D-25) extensively and can tell you that the P47D-25 is definitely a good turner down on the deck and WILL give a LuftWobble a nightmare if the guy flying the Jug is good in it.
-SW

iculus · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2001, 12:40:00 AM »

Picking on the P-47??

Come on...

eddiek · « **Reply #25 on:** July 30, 2001, 01:00:00 AM »

You guys amaze me: The D-11 is not right....Pyro pointed that out. What effect the added 300# will make has yet to be seen. Maybe it turns better than you have become accustomed to.........maybe you got complacent and some Jug pilot filled yer butt with lead? Regardless, add the 300# and what will we have? Likely, a D-11 Jug that performs like the books say it will....that means top speed near or at 420+, fuel hog, slow climb, etc.....but a German plane, performing 26 mph faster than ANYTHING I have been able to find for it's model is "okay"? Give me a break! The weight will be added, no doubt; will the G10 be slowed down to the 426 mph top speed (only speed I have EVER seen for the G10, BTW)? Oh? What's that? "Certain" models of the G10 had the K model's engine installed? Hhmm.......what is wrong with this picture? German planes modeled to whatever gives them the highest #'s performance-wise, but the Jug has to be stock, right down to the "published" numbers. Seems someone on the inside has a hidden love for LW iron, and wants them to have all the edges.........

Urchin · « **Reply #26 on:** July 30, 2001, 01:50:00 AM »

SW- if you'd care to try that out in the DA or something lemme know, I'm pretty sure that the 190a5 can outturn the P47 in a sustained, low speed circle (which it will be because both planes lose speed so damn fast). I fly the F4 and G2 some, I actually prefer the G2 because it is much faster than the F4, and turns almost as well. I know you have been around for a while, and probably have much more experience flying the planes than me, so I want to ask you a quick question. Of the 109F4 through G10, and the 190A5 and A8, what is the order in turning performance.. Say high speed and low speed seperately. High speed I consider 300+, low speed 200-.

As far as I know, I'd give this order, please let me know if you agree or disagree.

High speed- 190a5, 190a8, 109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 109G10.

Low speed- 109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190a5, 109G10, 190a8.

I realize that at 350+ the 190 will be more manueverable than the 109 because of the control difficulties the 109 has. Thats why I put them at the top for the high speed, because I figure that the high speed will be a break turn, which would rapidly become a "slow" sustained turn. The 190s also bleed speed a lot faster than the 109, which lets them cut inside of a break turn to get off a snapshot.

I ask this because if you put the American planes (at least the USAAF planes in, I'm not so certain about the USN), I'd order the list like this.

High speed- 190a5,P47D11, P47D25, P47D30, P38, 190a8, P51B, P51D, 109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 109G10.

Low speed- P38, 109F4, 109G2, 109G6, 190A5, P47D11, P47D25, P47D30, P51B, 109G10, P51D, 190A8.

Again, this is purely personal experience, so it may or may not jive with the experiences you have had. All I can really say is that when I am in a 190A8 and a P47 or P51 comes hunting me, I don't like the feeling to much. I honestly HATE P38s, because they turn so much better than the other USAAF planes, and they are damn fast to boot. Only consolation is that they are easy to shoot down if you manage to get behind em.

Also EddieK... let me bounce this off you. A lot of spitfire "fans" want their Spit9 "fixed". They say the engine mounted on it (which I assume they found out by matching the speed in AH vs. the historical planes speed) doesn't match the guns that are on it. So they want the rest of the plane made better, so that it will match the "better" guns that are on it. Do you think they should just remove the .50s and put on the .303s that were in place on Spitfires that had that engine, and wing shape?

Honestly, I don't really care if you do or not, I was just making the case that in many situations the AH plane does not match up with the historical plane that it claims to be. Our 190G10 apparently has an engine that was mounted in the K4 varients. It doesnt have the little "Flettner" tabs that the K4 had to assist with high speed rolling. It doesn't have the armament options that I've seen for the 109K4 (which include 3x30mm, bet you'd be THRILLED to have that one as an option, huh?). I agree with you that the only data I've ever seen in books or webpages lists the 109G10s top speed as 426 mph. So why don't we take our 109G10, make it a K4, and give us the faster rolling and bigger guns? Isn't that a viable option to?

Anyways, I did not mean to turn this post into a "typical Luftwhiner" thread, so I'll leave it at that. Anyone that would care to perform "tests" of the P47s vs. any German plane, I'd be happy to assist. Hell, I enjoy the DA more than the MA nowadays anyway.

Staga · « **Reply #27 on:** July 30, 2001, 01:50:00 AM »

That was very refreshing post EddieK.
I haven't seen those ones in a long time

eddiek · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2001, 02:45:00 AM »

Hhhhmm.....what was the question again?

I personally think they need to pick the correct engine/wing/gun combo and stick with it. I don't know much about the Spits, especially the fine details like the "LF", "XXX", or "Rated R" wings....so the differences are lost on me. But that doesn't mean that they are not important to the Spitfire fans in AH......if it is not correct, IMHO, Pyro needs to get on the stick and fix it sometime. What effect will it have on the performance of the Spit9? I don't know...like I said, I am not up to date on the particulars of the Spitfire.
I think I am correct in saying that many of the Ah birds, the LW iron in particular, had so many damn variations for a particular plane that Pyro has to pick some of them to model in and leave others off. Hell of a decision to have to make, IMO, 'cause inevitable, someone is gonna say "I read where they had (insert whatever option you want, there are a lot), and I think we need it on the AH plane too." From what I personally have read the Germans came up with "field packs" to suit different roles for the 109/190, and it was a simple matter of installing them in the field. If people are asking for these options because they were available, and getting them, how come others aren't allowed anything but what came out of the factory?
As far as the G10 being relabeled a K4, if it has K4 performance, it ought to be called the K4 and not a G10. The increased armament doen't bother me in the least....just makes it more of a challenge, plus the added weight of the cannon should make her handling suffer some, giving me a better chance of getting a kill.
There are others that I think need addressed, like the vicious stall of the F6F (anyone found anything to support this behavior in the RL plane?) and the A6M's ability to continue flying with damage that is fatal to other more rugged planes. AH is the best on the market, hands down, but it ain't perfect. It will take time, and Pyro is just one person. I am sure all these items will be fixed in the future, and until then, we will just have to live with them.
BTW, I think you have the right idea.....the DA might be the place for me..........I love a 1v1 historical fight over the MA stuff anyday. The last REALLY Jug vs 109 fight I had was against Glasses before he left, and I was having a ball........until a Spit came in and interrupted what was, to me, a classic battle.

PS: Staga, what do you mean? Refreshing in what way?

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: eddiek ]

Nashwan · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2001, 06:23:00 AM »

Just to get the Spit straight.
The AH Spit IX has the speed of the F IX model with a Merlin 61. There were approx 350 such planes made. In early 43 they switched to the Merlin 63, 666 or 70, all with more power than the Merlin 61. The AH Spit climbs worse than any Spit IX, whatever the engine.
The reason Spit fans are calling for the change in engine model is twofold. First, around 5000 Spits were made with the more powerfull engines, against 300 or so with the earliest Merlin 61. It seems wrong to model one of the worst 300, and not one of the more representitive 5000. Sort of like modeling the only 190 as the 190A1.
Second, the only other candidates for a late war RAF fighter are the Spit XIV and the Tempest. The tempest is already a ver expensive perk, the Spit XIV will be if it ever gets here. That leaves the Spit IX as the best an RAF fan will get unperked, and so it should at least be a typical 43 model, not a typical 42 model. The RAF thought the basic 42 model Spit IX wasn't good enough in 43, and replaced them with better Spit IXs.