Author Topic: Temporary REMOVAL of N1K1 justified? (Read 2924 times)

hazed- · « **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2001, 05:18:00 PM »

Yeager i always read your posts with one thought in my mind and that is that you never did moan just for the sake of it in all the time ive known you.
I flew yesterday and met a niki co alt at 18k.i was in 190a8 60% fuel full speed for 5 mins or so before encounter.the niki climbed and i continued full speed toward him so at this point it is very unlikely that the nik is faster right?(possible ill agree but unlikely) well he was 2k or so ahead and a bit higher and he began to dive towards me(HO

),as he dived i nosed down slightly to make him go even steeper.when i knew he was not going to get his shot i zoomed into a vertical climb under him, watching him streak past me.He was almost dead vertical and i continued up knowing he would only be able to gain back all the alt if he performed a steady reclimb keeping his energy(no hard turns) BUT no ! he reverses from vertically down to straight up hard.Im now a lot higher and leveling out at top of zoom climb(almost stall).i watch him come up thinking theres no way with such a hard reverse from vertical that he could match my height right? wrong. he keeps coming up and up until hes within 700-800 yards! i was so annoyed i didnt evade, i just watched thinking how is that possible? at engagement we passed at very high speeds...me going up him going down almost cockpit to cockpit.I was light on weight full speed 2x20mm not 4 etc.
I was so disgusted at how he was gaining i nosed down and broke for a furball to lose him.I refuse to fight that sort of energy plane now and ill avoid fights with them until i hear its fixed.
karnak you say yeager will be woefully dissapointed with just the E-retention being remodeled but id say that will be exactly what he expects.Its not the performance/guns etc I think its the unpredictability of its zoom climb and e retention that makes it such a sod to fight.other planes you can learn to read but to me it seems the nik is very hard to judge.it looks to be going slow but it will STILL fly up and bite yer ass.
Im NOT complaining! I left AH for long enough to lose that angry feeling i used to get when this sort of thing happened and i suspect this anger is what has made yeager post this.This sort of frustration made me leave,true im back

but HTC lost $60-$70 because of it.

Yeager I asked similar things in my posts and just got abuse when all i was doing was asking for answers.
Just remember some of us DO read these posts for what they are, I dont attribute hidden agendas to them like some others.Theres no hate of a plane or a type of flyer/pilot.I see a pilot who i know knows his stuff commenting on an aspect of the game that can really spoil the whole enjoyment for him and making a simple request, which after yet another quirky encounter(above) i can only agree with.

<S> yeager

ive flown the niki and its not the perfect killer i know, im not claiming they are SUPERPLANES but i do think they are unpredictable in their energy state compared to all other aircraft in AH.Its those times when you think 'ok theres no way he can....wtf? he HAS!'

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

wells · « **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2001, 06:27:00 PM »

about energy states,

What's guns range? Let's say 3000 ft?

How much of a speed advantage do you need to keep a 3000 ft altitude advantage in a zoom climb? If you're flying at 300 mph and he is at only 100 mph, you will gain about 3000' to his ~300', provided he has just enough speed to point his nose up. He is still in guns range and that's a 200 mph speed advantage...doesn't matter what plane...the N1k2 could be a 109F. If you had a 100 mph speed advantage (300 vs 200 mph), he could still zoom to within 400m of you. If you want to be safe in such an attack, you need a 6000' altitude advantage, so you can dive on the target, starting at slow speed (~100 mph), so you don't blow too much E by diving beyond the speed that your engine can take you.

Tac · « **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2001, 06:54:00 PM »

wells, then tell me why that does not apply to other planes.. particularly those with good zoom rate(infact, MUCH better zoom rates than n1k)?

I know the ONLY planes I cant pull a hammerhead on because of the inherent danger are the la7 if co-E or high E, the 109g10, other 38's and a high E yak or P51 or F4u. Any other plane WILL fail to get within d700 or if they do, will be losing control or stalling or having torque screwing up their aim. Just get a 109g10 and a n1k, have the n1k fly level until it gets to its max speed. have a 109g10 dive 3k higher behind the n1k, fly below the n1k, and pull up in front of its nose. Make the n1k do a HARD pull up and zoom after the g10. N1k will stay within d500 of the g10 and the g10 will lose control FIRST and stall, the n1k is able to maintain that nose up and aim without any torque problem.. the g10 will be spinning its bellybutton waaay before that.

1900HP engine on light plane.. much power aye, also lotsa torque. Not in AH though.

Yeager · « **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2001, 07:09:00 PM »

Copy that hazed, we read the same book here!

I was chasing down a N1k who was in turn chasing down a squad mate. They were level at 17k and the 51D was moving with a good head of steam (maybe 380-390ias) being caught somehwat unaware of the N1k while feasting on more mortal nibblets. The N1k wasnt catching the 51D but wasnt losing ground either. I started a shallow dive against the N1k from up aft about 4k out and maybe 2k higher. Having good speed (maybe close to 420ias) I was loaning out altitude and closing slowly but steadily on the N1k.

As I closed to just under 2k that damned thing looped straight up and over -pointing right at me in less time that it takes to fart. Ive seen this before so I broke shallow right and nose down maybe 10 degrees to extend out and give my squaddie a chance at the reversal. Nope... that damned N1k closed in at the bottom of the barrel after that 10g pullover and killed me with a sustained burst out at about 800 yrds.

Ive seen N1k oddities enough to know I should just keep to vulching them and no more. But I am hopefull to the last

PYROs post does excite me with the possibility of bringing the thing (at least somewhat) back into the realm of believable physics.

The N1k has an anomoly (remember v1.03 vs 1.04). It gives many the impression of being slightly devoid of the normal restrictions placed on mass by gravity.

I salute Pyro for making the comment. It provides hope and insures continuous quality improvement.

Yeager

Urchin · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2001, 10:22:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac:
wells, then tell me why that does not apply to other planes.. particularly those with good zoom rate(infact, MUCH better zoom rates than n1k)?

I know the ONLY planes I cant pull a hammerhead on because of the inherent danger are the la7 if co-E or high E, the 109g10, other 38's and a high E yak or P51 or F4u. Any other plane WILL fail to get within d700 or if they do, will be losing control or stalling or having torque screwing up their aim. Just get a 109g10 and a n1k, have the n1k fly level until it gets to its max speed. have a 109g10 dive 3k higher behind the n1k, fly below the n1k, and pull up in front of its nose. Make the n1k do a HARD pull up and zoom after the g10. N1k will stay within d500 of the g10 and the g10 will lose control FIRST and stall, the n1k is able to maintain that nose up and aim without any torque problem.. the g10 will be spinning its bellybutton waaay before that.

1900HP engine on light plane.. much power aye, also lotsa torque. Not in AH though.

I don't rope P51's in a 109G10- I generally try to force them into a turn fight (which I will win). Never had any trouble roping F4U's or Yaks- the LA7 is tough to rope. The P38 is really easy to rope..

Also- one of the very FEW things that the 109G10 CAN do to the N1K2 IS rope it. I've never had any success with dogfighting them, but I can rope them with probably 75% effectiveness. This won't work if the N1K2 is on your tail when you try to rope him, but you can go vertical on the merge (headon), and the N1K2 will generally not be able to get a good guns solution. It has happened before, but generally the 109g10 will outclimb the N1K2 by about 6-700 yards if they are co-E. You will nose over first, just chop the throttle and pop flaps- the N1K2 will still be pointed at you as you start down, but he will be going so slow you have about a 75% chance of getting him RIGHT as he noses over (from about d250-300). That is the ONLY way I've found to reliably kill N1K2s in the 109G10- the other 109s and 190s can't do it though.

EDIT- And to the original question- no, I do not believe the removal of the plane is justified. I DO NOT enjoy seeing the plane so often, but HTC IS a business- they would lose money if the removed the N1K2- and I believe they will lose money if they perk it as well, even though I do think perking it is justified.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Tac · « **Reply #20 on:** August 09, 2001, 10:20:00 AM »

urchin, I went to MA with my squaddie and had a G10 zoom up with higher E in front of me, he with full wep. My n1k stayed nose up the whole way, if I had been shooting that g10 wouldve been dead when it nosed down and I still had 100 mph ...and no problem ruddering to aim I might add. I believe your ropes work because you had a bit of horizontal separation, what im talking about is a 90 degree climb. Try it, you'll be surprised.

Urchin · « **Reply #21 on:** August 09, 2001, 12:24:00 PM »

Hum, thats interesting. How fast were both of you going? Also, how far away from you was he went he went vertical? I generally start to pull up around d700 on my FE (so maybe 500 on his). Generally, I dive below them while heading to them, and they generally go for the shot- maybe that is why it works? I don't know.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #22 on:** August 09, 2001, 12:26:00 PM »

Tac, that's because you aren't supposed to just zoom straight up. YOu extend in a climb, zoom, and nose down.

That's probably why you keep getting shot down.
-SW

Tac · « **Reply #23 on:** August 09, 2001, 12:27:00 PM »

Read the above urchin. Fly n1k level till it gets as fast as it goes. Have the g10 dive on wep from behind, fly under the n1k and pull up 90 degrees in front of its nose. The n1k can pull an extremely hard G pull to nose up 90 degrees AND will follow the G10, always inside d700 range or so, the G10 will stall and nose down, the n1k will still keep its nose up for enough time to shoot and kill.

"The P38 is really easy to rope" interesting fact vs a plane whose zoom ability is renowned..and much better than the pony.

[ 08-09-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

Urchin · « **Reply #24 on:** August 09, 2001, 09:29:00 PM »

Hum, ok- I have never actually dove under the N1k2 and zoomed back up, i usually extend away then zoom. Or rather, on those I never really zoom, I make a fairly steep (maybe 30 degrees or so) climb once I get about 1k away- if i miss the bounce. I only pull a steep climb on really slow planes.

Maybe the 109G10 couldn't rope the P38 in real life- but it sure as hell can in AH. I wouldn't try it with Citabria in the P38, but anyone else is getting roped ;-)

Fatty · « **Reply #25 on:** August 10, 2001, 01:29:00 AM »

Tac, in that situation the n1k will never be pulling as hard as the g10. Given it is at level top speed, as you indicate, the g10 driver would be lucky to ever live (same situation with any plane over 300 top speed). This is not a simulation of actual combat, as a level n1k in that situation should be dead, or the g10 driver can't hit a stationary target anyway, so the confrontation is already decided.

Yeager · « **Reply #26 on:** August 10, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »

Let me rephrase my intent.

If an object is released into the game and is later found to be wrong (i.e. in need of correction), and this flaw is having a demonstrable negative impact on gameplay: should the object be disabled from selection rather allowed to remain selectable? (until the next release or patch which is either weeks or months away)

PS. the N1K, F4U1C, P47D11, GV damage model, high alt ack, field ack, engine damage model etc etc.... all need further work imo. I try to remain objective by saluting HTC for an awesome, absolutely stunning job on AH yet I want them to remain sharp knowing that I do more than simply notice flaws and brush them aside (for too long anyway).

<S> HTC

Y

Hooligan · « **Reply #27 on:** August 10, 2001, 12:19:00 PM »

Yeager wrote:

Quote

this flaw is having a demonstrable negative impact on gameplay....

This is completely subjective. You may feel that there is a significant negative impact on gameplay but I certainly don't. I expect the N1K fix to be similar in effect to what will happen when the weight for the D11 is corrected. That is to say: noticeable but hardly major.

Whatever flaws exist in the N1K flight model, they bother me very little. From the number of N1Ks I see in the MA it is quite clear to me that a lot of players like the aircraft and would not want it removed. From the posts on this thread, it would seem that among the minority that read and post here, very few think it is a sufficient problem (a problem that we don't even really understand the scale of) to warrant its removal.

If almost everybody agreed with your statement that I quoted, then perhaps the problem should be dealt with precipitously (i.e. a special patch rather than removal). Apparently however, only a small minority agree with your position.

Hooligan

Tac · « **Reply #28 on:** August 10, 2001, 05:12:00 PM »

I see no difference between the AH n1k and the Fighter Ace spitfire/hurricane.

Fatty, the example is not a combat situation, its to demonstrate a weirdness in the n1k: lack of torque on a 1900HP lightweight plane. In combat, that n1k wouldve turned and zoomed after the g10..and still cought it.

Yeager · « **Reply #29 on:** August 10, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »

Agreed hooli!

I doubt the N1K change is sufficient. However, some results from my work in and against v1.07 GVs really had me seeing redbluegreenyelloworange. Some bad things there.

As for the D11 and F4U1-C, I really am doubtfull that 300 lbs on the lightside is even in the ballpark.

End analysis: who knows, but one thing I am certain of: mathmatical computations dumped into software code are easy to screw up. Dont be surprised to see some big tweeks as the months (and years hopefully) allow AH mature more completely.

Y