Author Topic: E-retention  (Read 4109 times)

Offline wells

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E-retention
« on: September 17, 2000, 09:04:00 PM »
With 1.04 out the door, it might be a good time to analyse e-retention of AH planes.  Sure, there's some work to be done in yaw still, but you're supposed to be coordinated to conserve E, right?  I did calculations for WB a long time ago and there's a few different ways to measure it.  My preferred method is to convert the acceleration or deceleration at various speeds and G-loads into a rate of decent, since acceleration and vertical velocity are directly related.  
Testing in the simulation requires good piloting skills to maintain a constant speed and G-load in a spiral dive.  What you do is measure the rate of decent.  The plane that decends faster at a given speed and g-load is  losing energy fastest.  For best accuracy, you want it to take longer to decend so that any time discrepencies equate to minimal error, yet at the same time, you want to be close to the angle of attack limit for maximum energy bleed.  What this means is that you should choose a relatively low speed and a G-load that you know all planes are capable of, say 250 mph and 4 g's.  Start at 20000 feet, get the plane trimmed up for 250 mph IAS level, set power as required, then go into a spiral dive, maintain speed and 4 G's in the dive, do not adjust power (It is essentially cancelling out the parasite drag, so we can limit the results to the effects of increased induced drag only).

If anyone wants to volunteer to test fly a few planes, I'll post the calculations so we can compare.  The calculations may not match sim results perfectly, but should give a very good indication of relative performance between aircraft.  I guess 50% fuel load would be appropriate?  

Offline wells

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E-retention
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2000, 09:32:00 PM »
First 4 planes, F4u-1D, P-51D, P-47D, P-38J (50% fuel, 250 mph, 4G's)  I will apply an efficiency to the induced drag called Oswalds' efficiency, calculated by 1 - 1/AR for a straight wing.  Taper ratio is also factored in

P-38J (16500 lbs)
Wing Area = 327.5 sq ft
Aspect ratio = 8.25
Taper ratio ~ 0.33
Oswald efficiency = 0.96
Induced drag = 3344 lbs
Deceleration = 4.44 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 5219 ft/min

P-47D (13300 lbs)
Wing Area = 300 sq ft
Aspect ratio = 5.56
Oswald efficiency = 1.0 (ideal elliptical)
Induced drag = 3379 lbs
Deceleration = 5.58 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 6542 ft/min

P-51D (9400 lbs)
Wing Area = 235.75
Aspect ratio = 5.81
Taper ratio ~ 0.5
Oswald efficiency = 0.91
Induced drag = 2258 lbs
Deceleration = 5.27 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 6186 ft/min

F4u-1D (11250 lbs)
Wing Area = 314 sq ft
Aspect ratio = 5.35
Taper ratio ~ 0.67
Oswald efficiency = 0.87
Induced drag = 2759 lbs
Deceleration = 5.38 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 6315 ft/min

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-17-2000).]

Offline wells

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E-retention
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2000, 11:48:00 PM »
My own preliminary flight tests show pretty good results.  I took off with 75% fuel, so that when I got to 20k, I had close to 50%.  I set up the spiral and timed it from 15k down to 5k.  I got these average rates of decent.  

P-38J/L:  6000 fpm
P-47D-30:  7500 fpm
P-51D:  6800 fpm
F4u-1D:  6700 fpm

Offline StSanta

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E-retention
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2000, 01:11:00 AM »
Uhm

Someone tell me what tbhese numbers mean, and how you acn use them.

Rate of descent? Point nose straight down, apply full throttle.

I can do more than a meagre 6k a minute freefalling  

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Offline flakbait

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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2000, 01:15:00 AM »
Talking to yourself again Wells? I'm callin your shrink, you need to be medicated.....again. :P

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Offline wells

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2000, 01:19:00 AM »
ahhhh...thanks Flakbait, I thought I'd lost those pills!  Turned out they were right where I left 'em...doh!  <swallows pill>

uh...duh...sim good....yeah...mmmmm donut...

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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E-retention
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2000, 01:33:00 AM »
Santa, nose straight down and full throttle you won't do steady 250mph and 4G  
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funked

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E-retention
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2000, 04:12:00 AM »
Santa the numbers represent energy lost per minute in a 4g turn at 250 mph.

Thanks Wells for doing the calcs and testing.  The two sets of numbers look a LOT closer than pre-1.04.  Now if they can only fix the bizzare behavior at high slip angles.

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2000, 05:47:00 AM »
Wells, you can set fuel burn rate to mimimum in Arena settings. Now you can climb to 20k and still have 50% like you took off.

And now please include Fw 190A-8 in your tests  .

Offline Sancho

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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2000, 06:10:00 AM »
Interesting thread.  I'm no aeronautical engineer, but looking at your calculated rates of descent vs. tested rates, it looks like AH planes still bleed E too fast.  Assuming the calculations are correct and there was no error in testing, is that a correct interpretation?  Also, looks like the pony is bleeding E too fast or the F4U is holding it too well.

I'm just trying to understand what the numbers mean, not say whether they're right or not.

Offline wells

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E-retention
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2000, 12:34:00 PM »
I probably had a bit more than 50% fuel, maybe 60% or so and that would affect things.  I didn't know I could set up the fuel burn rate, so I'll try it again with 50% and see what happens.

The results:

P-38L: 5700 fpm
P-47D-30: 7300 fpm
P-51D:  6700 fpm
F4u-1D:  6350 fpm

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-18-2000).]

Offline wells

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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2000, 03:31:00 PM »
A few more planes (50% fuel)

190a8 (4 cannons) (9000 lbs)
Wing Area = 197 sq ft
Aspect ratio = 6.0
Taper ratio ~ 0.5
Oswald efficiency = 0.92
Induced drag = 2373 lbs
Deceleration = 5.79 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 6787 ft/min
Tested in sim:  6450 fpm

109G-10 (6850 lbs)
Wing Area = 173 sq ft
Aspect ratio = 6.1
Taper ratio ~ 0.5
Oswald efficiency = 0.92
Induced drag = 1540 lbs
Deceleration = 4.94 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft: 5787 ft/min
Tested in sim:  6400 ft/min

Spit IX (7100 lbs)
wing Area = 242
Aspect ratio = 5.6
Induced drag = 1185 lbs
Deceleration = 3.66 mph/s
Rate of decent at 10000 ft:  4296 ft/min
Tested in sim:  4080 ft/min

Keep in mind that I don't know the exact weights of the planes in AH, so I'm going on my own data for that and subtracting the weight of 1/2 the fuel load.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2000, 08:23:00 AM »
Really interesting Wells, really interesting  

When you get done, you need to do a "best to worst" list

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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2000, 03:29:00 PM »
Oh come on Wells, quit trying to clear up these issues with objective analysis.  It's much more fun and self-gratifying to just say that this was just a playability change away from realism.

BTW- thanks for the film you sent of the yaw problems.  The reason why I doubted your findings initially was that they were totally different than mine.  It turned out to be a bug in the reader of the data for building release files. That's why it didn't come close to what I'd seen on my test version.



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Offline Badboy

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E-retention
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2000, 04:19:00 PM »
Hi Sancho

   
Quote
Originally posted by Sancho:
Interesting thread.  I'm no aeronautical engineer, but looking at your calculated rates of descent vs. tested rates, it looks like AH planes still bleed E too fast.  Assuming the calculations are correct and there was no error in testing, is that a correct interpretation?  Also, looks like the pony is bleeding E too fast or the F4U is holding it too well.

I'm just trying to understand what the numbers mean, not say whether they're right or not.

You can really only use those calculations for a relative comparison, not for absolute performance prediction. So if you want to rank the aircraft in order of their energy retention under those conditions, it probably won't be too far off for that, but that's about it.

For example, if you redo the same calculations but include the full drag polar, along with thrust, using exactly the same data, and inserting popular values for the missing parameters, you get the following rank order comparison.

With lowest energy loss values ranked highest:


Cdi only at 10k (Wells)      

Rank   Ship   E-loss (mph/s)
1   P-38J   4.44
2   P-51D   5.27
3   F4U   5.38
4   P-47   5.58

Complete drag polar + thrust with the same data.      

Rank   Ship   E-loss (mph/s)
1   P-38J   2.42
2   P-51D   3.24
3   F4U   3.98
4   P-47   4.16

Ranking clocks out the same!

The rate of energy loss for the aircraft are different, that's why I pointed out that  you can't use the values for absolute performance prediction. The original assumption that the other drag components would cancel out the thrust at that speed is weak, because if it were true, those aircraft wouldn't be able to go any faster. However, because the induced drag is dominant at 4g, the relative comparison hasn't been lost, so the calculations are still quite valuable.

Having said that, the values for the Oswald Efficiency factor look a little suspect    

Badboy


[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 09-19-2000).]
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