Spitfires in tour 110: Late war

[SectorNine50]

True.

False.

False.

True.

True.

False.

False, due to the Mk XVI not being as good as the F4U-1C.

True, due to the MkXVI possibly being as good as the F4U-1C.

See?  I can do that too.

How do people define "as good" or "unbalancing?"  It's used very often and when evidence is given that an a/c is very good in most aspects, someone will just say "you didn't give any evidence that it is unbalancing."  People will use this term the way they want to fit their agenda.

I know I have been one to be frustrated by the XVI, and a few times I've lost my cool and spoke my mind on 200 about it, and I apologize for that.  However, it is incredibly frustrating to encounter this aircraft at a disadvantage, co-e, or even sometimes at an advantage.  This aircraft can do a 180 degree turn onto your six while maintaining and regaining speed quickly enough to get 20mm hits in you, possibly killing you.  You can't go vertical as it will out climb you and you can't dive because it dives well enough for long enough to kill you.  So you start turning; in a flat turn it out turns most, in scissors you can sometimes get behind it briefly (not very useful for non-cannon birds), but once you do, it goes vertical and back on your six.  The Spit XVI has at least one advantage over every aircraft in this game.

Does it deserve a perk?  No one can seem to have a civil conversation about this without taking personal stabs at those producing information for either side.  Why people take this topic so personally I could never tell you.  Personally I left the Spits because I was looking for a challenge, but not everyone wants a challenge and just likes the thought of flying a Spitfire.  I don't really care, but if you're saying that the Spitfire Mk XVI isn't an outstanding overall performing aircraft in this game, then your really not being honest with yourself.

[Lusche]

Just for sake of convo here. What do you think would happen if both the 16 and the pony would set to be perked plane?

I think more people would fly the LAs, Temps, F4u4, Spit14s  C-hog., etc etc?



(I always forget what other corsiar is perked)

From the 5 planes you mention, 4 are perked

Most likely to see an increase: N1K, Spit 8&9, to a lesser extend La-7

But this will never happen. The 16 won't get perked.

[xbrit]

I've spent quite a bit of time there. The Tempest, Chog, and F4U-4 are very popular, however, just from personal observation, I don't see their aggregate use as being any higher than 50%. They would have to comprise at least 60% of all sorties flown for each to reach the magic 20% of use mark, and even at that, if one of them were more popular than the others, thus taking a bit of the "market share", it would knock the other two below the magic 20% figure. Any person who thinks about it will realize that the 20% figure is an impossible standard to meet with today's plane variety and the number of die-hards who only fly in their favorite types.

You would only need one of these at over that "20%" mark. Take it that first say the Tempest was at 22% therefore making it mandated to be perked, the day after that is perked then the use of the next lowest plane becomes higher than this figure thus becoming perked itself. Not saying it would happen or that your wrong just showing another way of looking at it.

[Kev367th]

I think more plane variety could be promoted in the LW MA by lightly perking the Spit16. Its ubiquity tends to make flying "middle-of-the-road" planes to which it is double-superior or close to double-superior far less viable. Very fast planes can avoid it, and very good turners can play the angles game. (Which usually translates to "make it run away). But there are many planes which have moderate speed combined with moderate maneuverability, but the arena is full of SpitXVIs which have moderate speed plus excellent maneuverability plus top-of-the-line E-building properties.

Well looking at the stats over the last 5-6 tours, the Pony (based on number of deaths) is the most popular plane, so if you want variety - perk that.

Perking the XVI would force them into the VIII, then you perk that for the same reasons!

Totally in agreement with Dan on this - If it had been called the LF IXe I doubt we would having half of these discussions. In all fact based on its FTH it IS an LF IXe. (the Merlin 266 had a 1000ft higher FTH)

[BnZs]

Well looking at the stats over the last 5-6 tours, the Pony (based on number of deaths) is the most popular plane, so if you want variety - perk that.

Perking the XVI would force them into the VIII, then you perk that for the same reasons!

Totally in agreement with Dan on this - If it had been called the LF IXe I doubt we would having half of these discussions. In all fact based on its FTH it IS an LF IXe. (the Merlin 266 had a 1000ft higher FTH)

The Pony's popularity is purely artificial, and not based on performance. If the Pony were not The Most Popular American Plane Ever, if it were the "Me-209" or something, I doubt it's use would exceed that of the D9. It does not effect the viability of other rides in the MA too much, because nearly everything that cannot outrun the thing is more maneuverable.

And for the 1,123,456 time, the name given to the Spixteen does not change its performance numbers.

[Kazaa]

In my opinion the Spitfire Mk.XVI is a far better A/C then the F4U-1C. (edit A2A)

Also you couldn’t perk the Spitfire Mk.XVI without perking the Mk.VIII, the performance of both A/C are almost identical. Well apart from the Mk.XVI's higher roll rate of course.

Now to the question of perking the above two planes or just the Mk.XVI alone, I’ll keep that answer to myself.

[BnZs]

In my opinion the Spitfire Mk.XVI is a far better A/C then the F4U-1C.

Also you couldn’t perk the Spitfire Mk.XVI without perking the Mk.VIII, the performance of both A/C are almost identical. Well apart from the Mk.XVI's higher roll rate of course.

Now to the question of perking the above two planes or just the Mk.XVI alone, I’ll keep that answer to myself.

Something that should be brought up: Except for firepower, the C-Hog is the worst Hog in the lot.

And perking the XVI does *not* mean the VIII has to be perked. The VIII's sluggish rate of roll, especially at high speeds, by itself presents a notable exploitable weakness that does not exist with the XVI.

[Anaxogoras]

Karnak, definition of a valid argument:  an argument is valid if and only if the truth of its premises entail the truth its conclusion.

Whether or not an argument is valid is independent of whether or not its premises or conclusion are true.

In my opinion the Spitfire Mk.XVI is a far better A/C then the F4U-1C.

Also you couldn’t perk the Spitfire Mk.XVI without perking the Mk.VIII, the performance of both A/C are almost identical. Well apart from the Mk.XVI's higher roll rate of course.

Well, thank you!  But I have disagree about the VIII: its high speed roll rate is an achilles heel.  It is a little slower than the XVI, it accelerates worse, has a smaller payload, has reduced firepower, etc.  I don't know if you remember my aircraft ranking tables, but the La-7 is always ahead of the VIII unless I weight high altitude performance.

[WMLute]

I've given a valid argument that you simply ignored.  But here it is, super simple:

The F4U-1C is perked.
The XVI is as good as the F4U-1C.
Aircraft of similar performance should both be perked, or not perked (fairness principle)
Therefore the XVI should be perked, or the F4U-1C should be unperked.
QED.

The F4U-1c can launch from a CV.
The F4U-1c can carry @ 2,500lbs worth of ord.
The F4U-1c has the best guns setup in the game.
The F4U-1c has plenty of ammo for said guns.
The F4U-1c has the option of two drop tanks giving it a good range.
The F4U-1c is as fast or faster than the Spitfire Mk.XVI
The F4U-1c will turn with the Spitfire Mk.XVI with flaps out.
The F4U-1c handles better at stall speeds than the Spitfire Mk.XVI


The Spitfire Mk.XVI climbs better than the F4U-1c.
The Spitfire Mk.XVI will out accelerate the F4U-1c.
The Spitfire Mk.XVI turns better without flaps.


Looking at the above list, I don't see the Spitfire Mk.XVI being "as good" as the F4U-1c.  Not even close.

The Chog is a monster.  The Mk.XVI is just "good".

And perking the XVI does *not* mean the VIII has to be perked. The VIII's sluggish rate of roll, especially at high speeds, by itself presents a notable exploitable weakness that does not exist with the XVI.

Spitfire Mk.XVI has a better roll rate.
Spitfire Mk.XVI carries more ord.

Spitfire Mk.VIII turns/handles better at low speed.
Spitfire Mk.VIII has longer legs.

Those two offset each other in my opinion so in MY mind, they are indeed very similar/balanced.

I would count the longer legs of the VIII as much more important than the bomb carrying capacity.  If you are using a Spitfire as a bomb hauler, you are using it wrong.  I also value the low speed handling of the 8 as equal to, or more important than the roll of the 16.  When in a spit you will be fighting slow more than you are rolling fast.  (for me)

The ONLY argument for the Spitfire Mk.XVI's superiority is the two .50 cal's vs. four .303's machine guns. 

I personally don't see it as a huge advantage.  If I only use mg ammo in both planes, I tend to only be able to get 2 or so with either.  With the smaller ammo loadout on the 16 you tend to run out of mg's @ when you run out of cannons. 

In the 8 when I run out of cannons, I at least have some .303's left for my ride home in case I get into a fight and are usually good for one more kill (or 2).

The strength and weaknesses of the 16 vs. 8 are very balanced.  If you perk one, you would have to perk the other.

I prefer the VIII over the 16.  Always have.  When I am flying a Spit I am going to be slow and turning and the 8 is just superiour in a knife fight.  I also don't like the limited range of the 16, so if I fly one, it is usually defending.  For attacking I will take the 8.

[Karnak]

That was my point.  You stated the Spitfire Mk XVI was as good as the F4U-1C and gave no evidence of such.  As it happens, it isn't as good, though it is very good.

It isn't as good because it lacks the intant kill firepower, isn't as durable and cannot be taken off of CVs.

You people keep stating that the P-51's popularity magically doesn't count due to its fame while ignoring that the Spitfire is the most famous WWII aircraft of all.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.


Not one valid reason for perking it has ever been given,  The only reasons ever given are a varient of "I don't like it" and "I don't like Spitfires."

[RTHolmes]

consistent calls for the XVI to be perked, none for the P-51D, despite the usage stats. cant help feeling that if it was called eg. the Grumman P-16 we wouldnt see any calls for its perk.

I think the perception of the spits ability is also skewed by players who spend alot of time duelling, rather than in the MA - the qualities required for success in each are very different. in the MA, landing kills requires the ability to egress successfully. things like endurance, lots of WEP and ruggedness play a critical role here, and are all weak areas for the spit.


PS I prefer the VIII for the same reasons as lute

[BnZs]

You forgot that the SpitXVI has a much better sustained turn rate than the F4UC, or any other unperked F4UC. (With or without the use of flaps). On top of this, according to Mosq's data, the full flaps radius of the SpitXVI is 450 feet, compared to the F4U-1C's 443! Wow,that is a *massive* difference there!

 Turn rate *WINS* nose-to-tail turning fights, and this is the most intuitive and most common kind of turning fight you see. Extremely tight turn radius against something with the climb rate of the SpitXVI is basically defensive...he doesn't HAVE to accept an invitation to the scissors at all, he can just muscle up into the vertical. Don't let the fact that most SpitXVIs are horribly piloted obscure what it represents as an air superiority fighter.

And it is ludicrous to dismiss roll rate the way you have. An otherwise inferior fighter with good high-speed roll rate can conceivably use this to get the VIII out-of-plane for either an overshoot or enough separation to escape. Such is not the case with the SpitXVI. Roll rate is just as important defensively. A SpitVIII is that much less likely to avoid a guns pass because it cannot roll into an evasive nearly as quickly. The minute difference the VIII possesses in rate and radius of turn is not nearly so important in the MA as roll rate.

The F4U-1c can launch from a CV.
The F4U-1c can carry @ 2,500lbs worth of ord.
The F4U-1c has the best guns setup in the game.
The F4U-1c has plenty of ammo for said guns.
The F4U-1c has the option of two drop tanks giving it a good range.
The F4U-1c is as fast or faster than the Spitfire Mk.XVI
The F4U-1c will turn with the Spitfire Mk.XVI with flaps out.
The F4U-1c handles better at stall speeds than the Spitfire Mk.XVI


The Spitfire Mk.XVI climbs better than the F4U-1c.
The Spitfire Mk.XVI will out accelerate the F4U-1c.
The Spitfire Mk.XVI turns better without flaps.


Looking at the above list, I don't see the Spitfire Mk.XVI being "as good" as the F4U-1c.  Not even close.

The Chog is a monster.  The Mk.XVI is just "good".


Spitfire Mk.XVI has a better roll rate.
Spitfire Mk.XVI carries more ord.

Spitfire Mk.VIII turns/handles better at low speed.
Spitfire Mk.VIII has longer legs.

Those two offset each other in my opinion so in MY mind, they are indeed very similar/balanced.

I would count the longer legs of the VIII as much more important than the bomb carrying capacity.  If you are using a Spitfire as a bomb hauler, you are using it wrong.  I also value the low speed handling of the 8 as equal to, or more important than the roll of the 16.  When in a spit you will be fighting slow more than you are rolling fast.  (for me)

The ONLY argument for the Spitfire Mk.XVI's superiority is the two .50 cal's vs. four .303's machine guns. 

I personally don't see it as a huge advantage.  If I only use mg ammo in both planes, I tend to only be able to get 2 or so with either.  With the smaller ammo loadout on the 16 you tend to run out of mg's @ when you run out of cannons. 

In the 8 when I run out of cannons, I at least have some .303's left for my ride home in case I get into a fight and are usually good for one more kill (or 2).

The strength and weaknesses of the 16 vs. 8 are very balanced.  If you perk one, you would have to perk the other.

I prefer the VIII over the 16.  Always have.  When I am flying a Spit I am going to be slow and turning and the 8 is just superiour in a knife fight.  I also don't like the limited range of the 16, so if I fly one, it is usually defending.  For attacking I will take the 8.

[JunkyII]

It took me about three years before I started to give th 16 a bit more attention. Only to be told immediately to stay out of that "EZ mode dweeb ride!".
 
What I found  quite remarkable about this: Many of those saying that to me did claim in other threads on this BBS that "it's all about the pilot, not the plane" when it came to discussing the dangerousness of different fighters in AH...

Spits are easy to stick stir in, thats only reason why I hate them

[BnZs]

The SpitXVI is indisputably *better* than the F4U-1C in many ways, enough ways for it to be called the C-Hog's equal, an airplane which I will point out again, is indisputably the worst Hog in the stable except for the firepower. The same cannot be said of the SpitXVI compared to its stable-mates...

You people keep stating that the P-51's popularity magically doesn't count due to its fame while ignoring that the Spitfire is the most famous WWII aircraft of all.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I have never, and will never, advocate perking based purely on popularity or lack thereof, because any thinking person can see how ludicrous that idea would be. I advocate perking based on relative performance. The P-51D is an airplane with a single great strength, high top speed, albeit, even there it is slower than several unperked aircrat. It is otherwise mediocre at best. 90% of the planes in the set do something better, usually much better, than the P-51. The same cannot be said the SpitXVI. The fact that the History Channel hypes the thing ad nauseum does not justify repeatedly and illogically interjecting the irrelevant fact that the P-51D is popular in an American flight sim into this discussion.

[E25280]

So you can only give me an example of an unbalancing airplane, and not actually tell me what "unbalancing" is itself.  Are we in a Socratic dialogue?

In the past, I have suggested that ENY/Perks be based on K/D ratios and, or, use, and the suggestion was roundly rejected.  Ultimately, the rejection is correct: K/D ratios are easily skewed by who uses an airplane, e.g. P-38J, and popularity is skewed by factors other than performance, e.g. P-51D.

We are still without a working definition of "unbalancing," but the term is used all of the time to say this should be perked, and that not.  It is all ad-hoc.

Don't be dense.  The term "unbalancing" comes from the game designer himself.

http://www2.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/perks.html

The perk system is a way for HTC to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that.  Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc.  These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis.  So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.

That there are no hard and fast rules for it is beside the point.  If the XVI fit whatever benchmarks HTC uses, it would be perked.  It doesn't, so it isn't.