Author Topic: Energy Height Questions?  (Read 1314 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 01:46:06 AM »


My chart looks a little different than yours Badboy.  Is there anything wrong with expressing the curves this way?
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline hitech

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 08:21:48 AM »
Your chart is fine you just have to use it differently.
It tells you that 300 speed (not sure of your unit) and 0 alt is the same as 3000 ft and 0 speed.

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Offline Baumer

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 05:21:48 PM »
I like Stoney's chart better, sort of "my Energy Heights 1/2 full" vs. "my Energy Heights 1/2 empty" !  :D   It's always better to look at graphs that are trending up, than down.  :rofl

Great discussion, thanks for the info.
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2009, 11:30:10 AM »
My chart looks a little different than yours Badboy.  Is there anything wrong with expressing the curves this way?

That depends why you have drawn the chart. As Baumer points out, if you just want it to look good, up might be better than down from an aesthetic perspective. But joking aside, we do need to be clear about our reasons for drawing any chart, and what information we want to extract from it.

The chart I've drawn is intended to show the relationship between altitude and speed when an aircraft dives or climbs. There are some well known characteristics associated with those maneuvers that should be reflected in the chart. For example, we know that when an aircraft dives it gets faster, and that when it zoom climbs it gets slower again. You can see that this relationship holds true in the charts I posted. For example, in the first chart, if the aircraft at A at 8000ft & 250mph were to descend to 6000ft it can be seen from the chart that its speed would increase by 100mph, providing the aircraft didn't lose or gain energy during the process.

The assumption we are making here is that the energy state of the aircraft remains constant during the climbs and dives, that being so we need to draw lines on the chart that represents that constant energy state, that is lines of constant Es. The lines on my chart are lines of constant Es. They have the feature that if you lose altitude, you gain speed so that the Es stay the same. Similarly, if you gain altitude you lose speed for the same reason. That's a proper reflection of what happens in flight and it is the way these diagrams are drawn in military sources.

You can find another description of this beginning on page 392 of Shaw, and a diagram similar to mine on p395 of Shaw. 

Sorry, but I can't seem to see what your chart is telling me.

Badboy
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2009, 01:32:07 PM »
Well, perhaps I didn't set my chart or table up properly in MS Excel.  For some reasons the curves rise instead of fall.  I set the formula up and then substituted for altitude and velocity.  The chart I made was the result of a standard Excel scatter chart.  I then modified it a bit for better viewing.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline Badboy

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2009, 06:57:19 PM »
For some reasons the curves rise instead of fall.  I set the formula up and then substituted for altitude and velocity.

That might be the problem. If you start with the Es equation:

Es = V^2/2g + h

Don't plot it directly, rearrange it like this:    h = Es - V^2/2g

Set Es to a constant value, then for any speed v (on the x axis) you can calculate the altitude h (on the y axis) and you can see from this equation, that for any constant value of Es, h will get smaller as V gets larger, so the curves will droop as they should.

Hope that helps.

Badboy

PS, what book are you reading?




« Last Edit: April 23, 2009, 06:58:51 PM by Badboy »
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2009, 11:04:33 PM »
Well, I've got Shaw's book, but most of my work is coming out of Aircraft Design:  A Conceptual Approach, 4th Edition by Dr. Dan Raymer.  I started to do some initial design work for a Reno race plane, and I realized that some of the same methods used to do analysis of the design could be used to do some comparisons with the planes in game.  Anyway, he's got a chapter on performance analysis, and from that I started reading about Energy Height.  Once I get this chart setup properly, I'll go into the power curves. 
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline Badboy

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Re: Energy Height Questions?
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 02:11:09 PM »
Well, I've got Shaw's book, but most of my work is coming out of Aircraft Design:  A Conceptual Approach, 4th Edition by Dr. Dan Raymer. 

Ahh, well if you check out Dan's diagrams 17.13 on page 557, and then diagrams 17.14, 17.15 and 17.16 you will see that he draws the Es curves just as I've shown them.

Badboy
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