Author Topic: Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?  (Read 1111 times)

Offline Naudet

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« on: November 07, 2001, 05:28:00 AM »
Found this in an other forum.
I think it would be good if we get in 1.09 a D9 loadout option for 26 R4M air-to-air missles.

"Cheers,

David

Fw 190 D-9s with R4M air-to-air rockets mounted under the wings are known from several sources (1, 2, 3). Photos reveal a simple square wooden launch-rail system with 13 rockets under each, neither 14 as originally stated in our publication (1) nor 12 as stated in the Focke-Wulf document quoted therein and here. We originally believed that the R4M aircraft in our publication came from JG 1. However, when considering the wooded background behind the Dora, it looked very similar to other published photographs taken in Southern Germany where many JG 301 Doras were discovered by US forces. We considered that this Dora was possibly a JG 301 aircraft, and new research reveals that this speculation is indeed correct.

Since our publication, more information has become available on R4M-equipped Doras. On May 5, 1945, a large number of different Luftwaffe aircraft escaped to Norway from airfields in northern Germany and Denmark (2, 3). Several fighters landed at Lister airfield in southern Norway, amongst them were 6 Fw 190D-9s from II./JG 26 of which several were photographed (2, 3). Three of them carried 26 unspecified rockets under their wings, which in all probability were R4Ms, these aircraft listed being (4, 5):

Fw 190D-9, W.Nr. 210 954, 2 x MG 151, 26 rockets
Fw 190D-9, W.Nr. 400 619, 2 x MG 131, 2 x MG 151, 26 rockets (Identified here as "Weisse 1", 5./JG 26 - See photos in Cit.4)
Fw 190D-9, W.Nr. 210 069, 2 x MG 131, 2 x MG 151, 26 rockets

Of the three JG 26 Doras mentioned, two were 210000-series aircraft and one from the first production batch. This corresponded with our original interpretation that the "R4M" aircraft, WNr.2100??, was also from this first batch. The lack of Staffel markings aft of the fuselage Balkenkreuz, or evidence that they were painted-out on this aircraft and Weisse 1 (above) indicate that the aircraft were from an unknown unit's I. Gruppe.

The interpreted red Reichsverteidigung band, it is now believed to have a yellow band aft of it but whose top is oversprayed with a dark camouflage colour (81 or 83) to aid in ground concealment. (The black/white JG 26 RV band on Weisse 1 is also freshly painted (4)). These observations and
interpretations infer that this aircraft was attached to an unknown Staffel of JG 301's I. Gruppe. As is well known through numerous published photographs of various JG 301 aircraft, they are observed to have worn either red/yellow or yellow/red bands.

In addition to the photographic evidence, there are several documents which further support the belief that this aircraft was assigned to I./JG 301. Several months after the release of our Experten book, the following Luftwaffe document was discovered, dated March 22, 1945, which sheds more light on the use of this weapon (6):

SSO LSCW 694 22/3 (1510)
SSD LW Führungsstab IA

SECRET!
GLTD SSD LW Führungsstab IA
> SSD NACHR. LW. ORG. STAB 2. ABT.

1.) Proposal for the utilization of the operational test units
(Erprobungsstaffeln) equipped with Fw 190 D-9's with R4M and 21 cm launchers
A) The aircraft are to be transferred to the Geschwader under which the Staffel(n?) are currently under operationally control.
B) The pilots and technical personnel are to return to Jagdgruppe 10. The aircraft will be operated by the pilots of the Geschwader that currently holds the operational command of them.

2.) The Staffel equipped with Fw 190 A-8 and A-9 with Jägerfaust are to be ready for action under the operational control of JG 301 from March 27. The technical personnel are to return to Jagdgruppe 10 as noted under Number 1.

3.) A request is made for the immediate disbandment of Jagdgruppe 10.

This is an important document in that it reveals the various aircraft (D-9s) originally attached to JGr.10 were transferred to operational units for combat evaluation / operations were now to be retained by them permanently. While no units are specifically mentioned, the information available reveals that they were with I./JG 301 and II./JG 26 from at least late March 1945 onwards. Furthermore, JG 301 was charged with using a Fw190A-8/9-equipped Staffel mounting the R4HI Jägerfaust. Which Staffel remains unknown.

Additional information was discovered from the War Diary of the Chief: Technical Air Armaments, Flight Test Working Group for the period 26 February to 4 March 1945 discussed the use of R4Ms with the Ta 152 (6):

EQUIPPING THE TA 152 WITH SPECIAL WEAPONS:

In the last weeks of February 1945 an entire Staffel of Fw 190 D-9s belonging to the test unit Jagdgruppe 10 at Parchim was equipped with R4M air-to-air rockets. Each Fw 190 D-9 was equipped with two underwing launch racks, each with twelve rails, carrying a total of twenty-four R4M. JGr. 10 had been specially assigned to test the R4M. The R4M was the only air-to-air rocket to see service with the Luftwaffe and its warhead contained a high-explosive charge weighing 540 grams (R=Rakete, 4.4 kg=weight, M=Minenkopf).

As a result of these trials the order was issued to immediately equip not just the Me 262 but also the Fw 190 and Ta 152 with the R4M. The R4M installation was to be installed on the Ta 152 C-1/R31 and the Ta152H-1/R31. Modification directives also anticipated retrofitting the Ta 152H-1/R11, H-1/R21 and C-1/R11. By the end of the war JGr. 10 was to have three Ta 152s in addition to the rocket-armed Fw 190s.

The effectiveness of the R4M was successfully demonstrated by the Me 262. The order that disbanded Jagdgruppe 10 on 2 April 1945 called for all of 2./JGr. 10's Fw190 D-9s equipped with the R4M to be handed over to I/JG 301; it is not known whether this order was carried out.

Apparently, the order was indeed carried out. Interestingly, this document notes that the Doras were assigned to JGr. 10's 2. Staffel, whereas other sources claim it was the 3. Staffel (7):

On 4 April [1945], Jagdgruppe 10 which had operated with a handful of pilots on Focke-Wulf 190 A-8s, A-9s and D-9s was disbanded, its survivors being regrouped into a new Jadgstaffel 10. The Focke-Wulf 190D-9s of the old 3. Staffel, armed with R4M rockets, were turned over to Jagdgeschwader 301.

In conclusion, this new information reveals that R4M-equipped Dora-9s were sent to operational units from JGr.10, these being identified as II./JG 26 and I./JG 301. The subject aircraft in our publication is in all probability one of the JG 301 aircraft as identified by its location and the red/yellow RV tailband. While no individual aircraft number is visible, documents infer that it probably was assigned to the unit's 2. Staffel (red numbers), or, possibly the 3. Staffel (yellow
numbers). It is suggested that modeller's cut out the rear half portion of the RV band decal and it its place paint a yellow band on the aft fuselage. The yellow portion of the top fuselage spine should be painted in either 81 Braunviolett or 83 Dunkelgrün as seen in the photo. The selection of an individual aircraft number and colour is left to the modeller's discretion.

Citations:
1. Brown, D.E., and Wadman, D., 1995: History, Camouflage
& Markings of JV 44, JG 6 and JG 1 Focke-Wulf 190Ds -
Experten Decals No.3. Experten Historical Aviation Research, Calgary, 36p.

2. Urbanke, A., 1998: Green Hearts - First in Combat with the Dora-9. Eagle Editions, Hamilton, 351p.

3. Urbanke, A., 1995: Verlegung in letzter Minute - Die Geschehnisse im Sammelgebiet Schleswig-Holstein und die geplante Norwegen-Überführung. Jet & Prop, Issue 3/95, pp.20-23.

4. Rodeike, P., 1999: Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug - Fw 190A, Fw 190 "Dora", Ta152H. Struve-Druck, Eutin, 444p.

5. Experten Archive, via Kjetil Aakra.

6. Experten Archive.

7. Frappe, J.-B., and Lorant, J.-Y., 1981: Le Focke-Wulf 190. Docavia / Editions, Paris, 408p "

Offline Wilbus

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2001, 09:50:00 AM »
Great info  :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Urchin

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2001, 03:07:00 PM »
That is neat info, but I wouldn't hold your breath on getting either R4M or ground attack rockets for the 190s.

EDIT:  Actually, let me clarify this statement.  We won't get it because it apparently was not standard equipment for every single 190 that ever left the factory.  For HTC to give us "LW fans" optional weapon packs, they would have to give the "allied" fans something to.  Since the Allied planes did not come with optional weaponry (with the notable exception of the F4U-1C), the only thing that would be left would be performance tuning.  Since HTC has evidentally decided that the Allied planes performance is as it should be, they can't give anything extra to the LW planes without looking like they are showing favoritism.  At least that is my take on it.

[ 11-07-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Offline funkedup

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
Most Allied planes had optional weapons loadouts not available in the game.  If HTC added every Allied loadout that was used by a couple of squadrons, they would be busy folks.   :)

Offline Glasses

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2001, 04:01:00 PM »
Yeh but at least give us something to work with not pellets and one shot one kill bomb

Offline DingHao2

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »
the F-8 also had an R4M rocket loadout.  I think HTC should start adding more of the optional loadouts on every plane.

Offline funkedup

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2001, 12:54:00 PM »
Nice job Naudet!

Offline Raubvogel

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Fixed in the next patch?  :)

Offline funkedup

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »
I doubt they will add a modification that was only used by a "handful" of pilots in an operational test unit.  But maybe it gives them more incentive to add these rockets to AH, because now there are at least three AH planes known to have used R4M (or very similar) rockets operationally.

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Raubvogel

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
I'm not advocating their addition for the D9, this is just the first post I could find to punt up  :)

Me262
Fw190A8
Fw190F8
Fw190D9

Kill 4 birds with 1 stone.
Change the warhead on the R4M, and presto, you got the PzBlitz system done too.

Offline funkedup

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2001, 06:01:00 PM »
Yep
I'm pretty sure the F-8 had PzBlitz only.
Either way I think they can "kill a lot of birds" with one 3D model.   :)

[ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline butch2k

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Would this call for a R4M Loadout for the D9?
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2001, 01:29:00 AM »
Some corrections from Erich Brown made on my forum regarding a similar topic ( http://pub47.ezboard.com/fallboutwarfarefrm1.showMessage?topicID=524.topic  ) :

"I have had lengthy conversations with Dave Brown concerning JG 301's Dora's and the R4M launchers and rockets. The I. gruppe did not have Dora's at all and the photos are mis-read. A ossibility if the a/c depicted that he mentions were JG 301 a/c at all would have to be from II./JG 301. Because of the chaoticness of the war and the movement of the gruppe, II./JG 301 mechanics many times did not apply the second gruppe bar to the machines........."

[ 11-29-2001: Message edited by: butch2k ]