Author Topic: Regionalize Radar, Perk Plane Factory, Pork Fuel Poor Plane Performance  (Read 528 times)

Offline oneway

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All comments welcomed, including the inevitable "Its been discussed before", "Use search next time", "Learn to fly" etc...

The style of game play, as many long time pilots are aware, has degenerated into a Quake style mele' fur-fest where players are constantly either unconcerned with strategic play, or looking for ways to 'game' the game.

There are many ex-AW and long time AH players who would like to see a shift in the style of play in such a way as to put more emphasis on strategy and team work; no matter how subtle that shift might be. At the very least we would hope to see the present trend arrested.

CT (Combat Tour) was an effort by HT to address this. The greatest benefit of the CT experiment was the acknowledgment by HT that something needs to be done. HT stated in their press release upon the shelving of CT, that they were returning to the core business model that had served them so well in the past.

Further, HT included this in their press release concerning the cessation of the CT effort:

Quote
The reason for this is that we have decided that it is better to steer
our development in a way that allows us to implement our CT developments
first as part of the regular game.

I applaud HT that they continue to acknowledge that some effort needs to be made.

CT would never have worked, it would have split the community and assumes that other avenues of modifying game play would fail. We don't need an AI overlord to shape game play. I for one, encourage HT to continue to pursue elements of CT for deployment in the MA, however there are other avenues to explore and would require far less coding.

Humans by nature, are greedy, self-centered and egotistical, and never more so than in this game. Look at the demographic. The average player today is probably a 22 year old male, and we older players remember just how cocky and self-assured we were back then, always looking for an angle. Most of the younger guys will always want to fly through the skies with their hair burning and dominate everyone around them.

If we want the game play to change slightly, we need to exploit human characteristics; the same characteristics that have brought the style of play to the place it is.

The following would borrow from the theme of the old AW model, and I would propose they be considered and discussed:

  • Regionalize Radar: The larger maps we play need radar to be regionalized. Keep a main HQ that allows country wide radar loss, but add regional hardened command centers that control radar in that zone.
  • Regional Perk Plane Factory: Create regional perk plane factories that when destroyed take out perk planes for 15 minutes.
  • Change Fuel Strat:  Damaging regional fuel strat should have a direct and proportional effect on all aircraft performance that launch from the region.

The only way to curb the Quake style of play is to leverage the self-interests of the players. By gradually phasing in these sorts of changes, players will begin to realize that by both attacking and defending strategic targets, their style of play is both preserved and enhanced.

Vulchers will be more inclined to join a strike on a fuel factory if they believe that the effect will be easier vulching. Furballers will think along the same lines, and begin to see the value in denying perk planes to their adversaries. Niether of these groups will want to have poor engine performance or be denied high-performance aircraft.

One of the most interesting complaints these days is that when a squad or group rolls a field or two, that a perfectly good fight was ruined. These comments are more typical from your own countrymen. Under the present situation, strategic players are ridiculed by their own; this has a negative effect in terms of strategic emphasis.

Considering the entire game structure from a macro perspective is designed to allow one country to take land from the other country, I find these comments both amusing and telling. Their is a significant portion of players who could care less about the war and in fact resent those that do.

At the risk of alienating these players, it is incumbent upon those of us who feel the present style of play should change to remember why these other players enjoy the game. They are a significant source of income for HT and must be respected and considered.

Perhaps maps should always include a Tank Town set of bases that only have fighter hangers and vehicle hangers and radar. These bases could be set in the center of the map, not able to be captured, and be of no strategic value; a durable furball/vulch town if you will.

A word on perks: as it stands now, the perk system only enhances the Quake style of play. It puts an emphasis on racking up perks by vulching, and in fact is more likely a negative effect on arena balancing. Under the present perk system, the better pilots get the better planes. What possible goal does this model hope to achieve?

Perhaps the changes in the game are evolutionary and a sign of the times and our culture. As much as I cling to the notion that a sense of sanity can be returned to MA, perhaps its time to abandon the premise that this is still a thinking mans game.

I havn't given up of course...

Respectfully,

1Way



« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 11:34:08 AM by oneway »

Offline LLogann

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Welcome to the BBQ 1way!!!   :aok

Personally, I'm not going to flame you at all.  You actually took the time to think before threading.  That, in and of itself, is a good start!

And I feel where you're trying to go with all this.  SOme of it is code problems, some just the map requirements and others are just going to be flamed all day long.  But in the end, all your asking for is more.......  And I like more!

<S>

While we're on a regional note......  The TBM should have dar!!!
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Offline Karnak

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The regional radar centers would be fine.

The other two ideas, not fine.  They just enable gangbanging the side that is down.
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Offline The Fugitive

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  • Regionalize Radar: The larger maps we play need radar to be regionalized. Keep a main HQ that allows country wide radar loss, but add regional hardened command centers that control radar in that zone.
  • Regional Perk Plane Factory: Create regional perk plane factories that when destroyed take out perk planes for 15 minutes.
  • Change Fuel Strat:  Damaging regional fuel strat should have a direct and proportional effect on all aircraft performance that launch from the region.

Reg. Radar, I'm thinking your hoping to keep the radar up in idividual areas better with this. If so, while a nice idea I don't see it helping anything. Dar bar lets you know you have something or not, and a general idea of how many. It just becomes a hunting game after that. "know" where they are inside the sector isn't that big a help.

Perk Plane Factory, I don't see that many perk planes flying now, what is downing a factory going to do other than adding another "strat target" to be milked for points.

Fuel strat, In the old days fuel could be porked to 25% and planes at that field could lift with no more fuel than that. It inhibited play so much that they took it out. The idea believe it or not is to enable "play", not inhibit "play". I think thats the biggest reason you'll won't see the strat part of the game lifted high enough to do what most would think killing strat SHOULD do.



Quote
The only way to curb the Quake style of play is to leverage the self-interests of the players. By gradually phasing in these sorts of changes, players will begin to realize that by both attacking and defending strategic targets, their style of play is both preserved and enhanced.

Vulchers will be more inclined to join a strike on a fuel factory if they believe that the effect will be easier vulching. Furballers will think along the same lines, and begin to see the value in denying perk planes to their adversaries. Niether of these groups will want to have poor engine performance or be denied high-performance aircraft.

One of the most interesting complaints these days is that when a squad or group rolls a field or two, that a perfectly good fight was ruined. These comments are more typical from your own countrymen. Under the present situation, strategic players are ridiculed by their own; this has a negative effect in terms of strategic emphasis.

Considering the entire game structure from a macro perspective is designed to allow one country to take land from the other country, I find these comments both amusing and telling. Their is a significant portion of players who could care less about the war and in fact resent those that do.

This smells too much like telling people how to play the game, or "play my way" The name of the game is combat in all its many forms that HTC has provided. Forcing someone to cap a strat is not a lot of peoples idea of fun. While I think it would be a great place for me to cruse around in my perked ride picking off strat buffs  :D  just kidding!



Quote
At the risk of alienating these players, it is incumbent upon those of us who feel the present style of play should change to remember why these other players enjoy the game. They are a significant source of income for HT and must be respected and considered.

Perhaps maps should always include a Tank Town set of bases that only have fighter hangers and vehicle hangers and radar. These bases could be set in the center of the map, not able to be captured, and be of no strategic value; a durable furball/vulch town if you will.

This to has been tried, and the out cry from the "win the war" types was as loud as any cry from the furballers on hordes. Its not the bases that drive them nuts, it the people "wasting their time" there that bothers them. Is there a happy middle ground? Who knows.

Quote
A word on perks: as it stands now, the perk system only enhances the Quake style of play. It puts an emphasis on racking up perks by vulching, and in fact is more likely a negative effect on arena balancing. Under the present perk system, the better pilots get the better planes. What possible goal does this model hope to achieve?

Perhaps the changes in the game are evolutionary and a sign of the times and our culture. As much as I cling to the notion that a sense of sanity can be returned to MA, perhaps its time to abandon the premise that this is still a thinking mans game.

I havn't given up of course...

Respectfully,

1Way


Those people with a ton of perk points know better and rarely fly perk planes. A perked plane is perked so that the new players have a chance to figure out that flying a perked plane isn't really that big a deal while taking the time to earn the perks. Making them "cost" makes them a novelty, if they were free you would only see the perk rides flying because they are "the fastest with the biggest guns" I think the perks work out very well.

I agree that there should be some changes made, but nothing drastic, maybe just trim off the "excessiveness". Down play the win at all cost attitude thats seems to push some people too go a bit overboard in their game play.

Offline oneway

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Reg. Radar, I'm thinking your hoping to keep the radar up in idividual areas better with this. If so, while a nice idea I don't see it helping anything. Dar bar lets you know you have something or not, and a general idea of how many. It just becomes a hunting game after that. "know" where they are inside the sector isn't that big a help.

My understanding is that when HQ dar is out you lose the sector counters as well as the dar itself?

What I mean by the suggestion concerning regional dar is that when the regional center is out...the country has zero dar, zero dar bars for those sectors that comprise that region.

The idea is that if an area is being worked strategically, the strategic value of a dar center becomes a high value target.

In fact that is the whole notion behind all of three of the suggestions.

You said it: "what most would think killing strat SHOULD do."

The conundrum is how do you make Strat a viable target for a region (or even a sub region), such that a well organized group could have a strategic effect while not diminishing play for the broader balance of the arena and its players?

If the granularity of strategic targets could be increased in terms of a sub-regions of broader regions that might help. By this I mean perhaps every 4 bases have their strat centers that have a direct effect on those bases.

One of the big issues for strategic bombers is the down time or effect of hitting strat. As it stands now, the effect is limited to 15 minutes or less I believe. This is more than likely due to the fact that strat targets now govern such large areas. Meanwhile it takes typically up to 45 minutes or an hour to reach a strat target deep behind enemy lines.

By increasing the strat-region granularity, you could shorten the flight times, and perhaps even increase the down or effect times.

As far as the whole concept of milk running goes, who really cares? If a fella wants to milk run strat late at night let him. The only one paying attention to him is himself.

Again this is only for discussion and I appreciate your well thought and reasoned comments.

1Way


Offline hammer

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I can't read this in any way that doesn't make it seem like you're trying to make it easier on the horde rather than improving gameplay in any meaningful way. I will address some of your points individually from my perspective.

Quote
Considering the entire game structure from a macro perspective is designed to allow one country to take land from the other country, I find these comments both amusing and telling. Their is a significant portion of players who could care less about the war and in fact resent those that do.

Taking bases is a mechanism to generate fights. The objective of the game is combat, whether aerial, ground, or a combination of the two. For the most part, those who could care less about the war are those who have played long enough to finally realize this.

Quote
One of the most interesting complaints these days is that when a squad or group rolls a field or two, that a perfectly good fight was ruined. These comments are more typical from your own countrymen. Under the present situation, strategic players are ridiculed by their own; this has a negative effect in terms of strategic emphasis.

What I usually see happen, and what I generally see generate one of these complaints, is a perfectly good fight is going on between bases when one or two individuals will, on their own, decide to take out the fighter hangars at one of the bases "so it can be captured". This kills the fight almost instantly. The strategic players you mentioned came to the fight and stopped it at the expense of the many players that were already in the area. If they (strategic players) want to capture a base, pick one that is not supporting the guys who are enjoying the good fight. If you want to have a lot of fun, attack the base with small enough numbers that a fight develops and you actually have to work on making a capture. Having someone kill the fighter hangars at a base supporting a furball is like someone coming to the ice rink where a hockey game is going on and declaring it is now figure skating time.

Quote
The following would borrow from the theme of the old AW model, and I would propose they be considered and discussed:

  • Regionalize Radar: The larger maps we play need radar to be regionalized. Keep a main HQ that allows country wide radar loss, but add regional hardened command centers that control radar in that zone.
  • Regional Perk Plane Factory: Create regional perk plane factories that when destroyed take out perk planes for 15 minutes.
  • Change Fuel Strat:  Damaging regional fuel strat should have a direct and proportional effect on all aircraft performance that launch from the region.

The only way to curb the Quake style of play is to leverage the self-interests of the players. By gradually phasing in these sorts of changes, players will begin to realize that by both attacking and defending strategic targets, their style of play is both preserved and enhanced.

All of these changes would favor the horde. They worked in AW mainly because only the bases at the front were capturable. This meant any excursions to destroy the spit factory or take out radar had to be done with a long trip over enemy territory. In AH, the horde would simply roll up to these strategic targets and take them out. While some would make the old "they should be defended" argument, the reality of life in the arena is that an ample defense against a horde can't be mounted in the time it takes to fly between 2 bases.

Quote
There are many ex-AW and long time AH players who would like to see a shift in the style of play in such a way as to put more emphasis on strategy and team work; no matter how subtle that shift might be.

Not as many as there are who would just like to see people willing to fight a good fight and not look for ways to gain every possible advantage (like no radar, limited planes, and degraded performance) from their opponents before they are willing to engage. That may seem a bit blunt, but that's what's being asked for here as witnessed by...

Quote
Vulchers will be more inclined to join a strike on a fuel factory if they believe that the effect will be easier vulching. Furballers will think along the same lines, and begin to see the value in denying perk planes to their adversaries. Niether of these groups will want to have poor engine performance or be denied high-performance aircraft.

Your last sentence alludes to the instant defense that the horde constantly argues should pop up any time it (the horde) appears. That must be that pool of pilots sitting in the ready room just waiting until they are needed to defend a target that had nothing happening at it for the last hour. Or maybe the group who is willing to instantly abandon whatever they are already doing to auger and go counter the horde in the 5 minutes it takes to fly between bases.

Quote
A word on perks: as it stands now, the perk system only enhances the Quake style of play. It puts an emphasis on racking up perks by vulching, and in fact is more likely a negative effect on arena balancing. Under the present perk system, the better pilots get the better planes. What possible goal does this model hope to achieve?

Anyone obsessed with earning perks after their first couple of months has been steered the wrong way. I always chuckle to myself when I see people switching sides to try and earn the reset points (you have to had been in that country for 12 hours if I'm not mistaken). You can earn more perk points in a series of good fights than you ever can in hording a base and do it in half the time.

Quote
Perhaps the changes in the game are evolutionary and a sign of the times and our culture. As much as I cling to the notion that a sense of sanity can be returned to MA, perhaps its time to abandon the premise that this is still a thinking mans game.

Again, everything in the game, including any strategic elements, are there to promote fighting. Trying to turn it into a strategy game would require some command structure and some way to ensure everyone was working towards the same goal. While I would like to see strat targets mean something, it would have to be done in a way that absolutely would not favor the horde type tactics we are seeing today.

Regards,

Hammer
Hammer

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Offline The Fugitive

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My understanding is that when HQ dar is out you lose the sector counters as well as the dar itself?

What I mean by the suggestion concerning regional dar is that when the regional center is out...the country has zero dar, zero dar bars for those sectors that comprise that region.

The idea is that if an area is being worked strategically, the strategic value of a dar center becomes a high value target.

In fact that is the whole notion behind all of three of the suggestions.

You said it: "what most would think killing strat SHOULD do."

The conundrum is how do you make Strat a viable target for a region (or even a sub region), such that a well organized group could have a strategic effect while not diminishing play for the broader balance of the arena and its players?

If the granularity of strategic targets could be increased in terms of a sub-regions of broader regions that might help. By this I mean perhaps every 4 bases have their strat centers that have a direct effect on those bases.

One of the big issues for strategic bombers is the down time or effect of hitting strat. As it stands now, the effect is limited to 15 minutes or less I believe. This is more than likely due to the fact that strat targets now govern such large areas. Meanwhile it takes typically up to 45 minutes or an hour to reach a strat target deep behind enemy lines.

By increasing the strat-region granularity, you could shorten the flight times, and perhaps even increase the down or effect times.

As far as the whole concept of milk running goes, who really cares? If a fella wants to milk run strat late at night let him. The only one paying attention to him is himself.

Again this is only for discussion and I appreciate your well thought and reasoned comments.

1Way




Like Hammer said, you can't count on people "defending"as your excuse to promote a fight. If a half dozen guys finally got there spots all picked out and a a few guys are upping GVs and they are having a grand ol' time camping that spawn, no amount of danger to the base they spawned from is going to get them to move to defend it. In most cases they will beg for someone to run supplies out to them in stead of going to get them for themselves.

The same will happen with the "strategic" attack of a strat, or localized radar. People are too busy trying to have fun to drop everything to defend someplace. I don't think start mission will ever have a high importance in this game. Destroying start, will limit the "fun" in the game, and that is the reason people are here to play, for fun. If you take away the fun, the people will leave, and HTC is pretty stingy, and won't want to see all that money walking out the door.

On the other hand there is still room in the game for those who want to "win the war". Killing a furball isn't going to win you any friends, but if you pick a target a few sectors over and attempt to create a bridgehead there to push your advance across enemy territory, you will more than likely get like minded people to join in as well as defend. There already are a number of things in the game that nobody uses any more when it come to strategy and tactics. I don't think we need more tools, maybe just more people using the ones we have better.

Offline oneway

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That's what I am gathering fugitive...and your exactly right...all of the tools are here.

Meanwhile the next FSO frame set is all about Strat...and I love scenarios...I am thankful for the Special Events...

And it is what it is...

1Way



« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 03:52:54 PM by oneway »

Offline Cajunn

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Under the present perk system, the better pilots get the better planes. What possible goal does this model hope to achieve?




Its backwards isn't it, I have always thought this, It should be the other way around. But then again I think you would see a lot more sand bagging. I for one think that there should be some way to judge a player for his experience.......example: The better the player, the more planes or perked, but it would probably be impossible to implement but it would level the playing field and the learning curve wouldn't seem so harsh. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 01:07:48 AM by Cajunn »
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.”

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Offline moot

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What's the better alternative to meritocratic award of perk points?
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Offline Helm

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Re: Regionalize Radar, Perk Plane Factory, Pork Fuel Poor Plane Performance
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2009, 03:49:44 PM »
There is nothing wrong with the game .....it's the players that are the "problem" .  Hitech has set us up with a great play ground for us.  Yet the players ruin it.  The way the game is played is more about us the "customer" ...then HTC

Some players try there best to make things better.....those folks I salute.

  To the rest:  "You reap what you sow" 


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