Author Topic: We need a 109G10  (Read 819 times)

Offline morfiend

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2009, 04:56:05 PM »
^^^
  Oh ya!!!

Offline wrag

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2009, 06:04:03 PM »
The question is, do we really need it?

IMHO Yes or give the K4 20mm options!!!

Some are gonna claim the G14 is samo samo....

NOT

Our G14...

http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Bf109G14.htm

Our K4...

http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/Bf109K4.htm

As you can see they are DIFFERENT!

Not the same OTD or anywhere else.....

We need a HIGH alt 109 with 20mm options!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Krusty

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2009, 06:19:05 PM »
Your request is for a high alt 109 with 20mm. The only reason for this is scenario or FSO use. In MA use only the timid alt monkey runners are going to be above 20k.

You don't fly rook, do you wrag?  :uhoh

Seeing as the G14 BELOW 16K IS ALMOST THE SAME, you ****can**** use it in the MAs for almost ever occasion where you want a G10.

Considering scenarios, FSOs, the G10 showed up AFTER the K-4 did. It fills no holes in the planeset, and you might as well wish for hispanos on a P-40 (the old "I wish I wish I wish I had super guns on my favorite plane!" wish).

For scenario and FSO considerations ONLY, the G-6AS and G-14AS have much better legs to stand on. Performance still almost the same below 16k, only noticable above this point. MA use wouldn't be outside of the best alts of existing planes.

Offline wrag

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2009, 06:42:07 PM »
Your request is for a high alt 109 with 20mm. The only reason for this is scenario or FSO use. In MA use only the timid alt monkey runners are going to be above 20k.

You don't fly rook, do you wrag?  :uhoh

Seeing as the G14 BELOW 16K IS ALMOST THE SAME, you ****can**** use it in the MAs for almost ever occasion where you want a G10.

Considering scenarios, FSOs, the G10 showed up AFTER the K-4 did. It fills no holes in the planeset, and you might as well wish for hispanos on a P-40 (the old "I wish I wish I wish I had super guns on my favorite plane!" wish).

For scenario and FSO considerations ONLY, the G-6AS and G-14AS have much better legs to stand on. Performance still almost the same below 16k, only noticable above this point. MA use wouldn't be outside of the best alts of existing planes.

I get soooo tired of you tryin to put words in my mouth Krusty!  This is NOT what I'm asking for......

"Your request is for a high alt 109 with 20mm. The only reason for this is scenario or FSO use. In MA use only the timid alt monkey runners are going to be above 20k."

So now you are an authority on the MA and why people want something?

IMHO Krusty.... way too often you open your mouth and insert your foot!

"Seeing as the G14 BELOW 16K IS ALMOST THE SAME, you ****can**** use it in the MAs for almost ever occasion where you want a G10."

NO Krusty they are NOT almost the same!

Look at the top speed listed OTD, and at alt, and look at acceleration and climb.  There are differences.  Acceleration being the MAJOR one.

Handling is also an issue IMHO they fly different and they handle different.  The G14 does all the same things maneuver wise as any 109 BUT it does em slightly slower then the K4 and SEEMS heavier in some ways then all the other 109s.  Perhaps thats because it may be modeled after the heavily armored ground attack version for the G14?  Sadly the G14 Bleeds E very rapidly and takes considerably LONGER to get that E back!

So...... sorry.... they are NOT the SAME.... ENOUGH for what I'm requesting so............. NO they are not interchangeable for MA use or otherwise!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline morfiend

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2009, 06:11:14 PM »
Wrag,I support your wish fully but the only 20mm guns on the K4 were in the gondies,the exception being a few 4 or 5 built that had 20 mm hub guns do to shortage of Mk108's.

 
G10,14as,6as would round out the planeset and give the LW the hialt A/C to compete with US birds.

 :salute

Offline slimmer

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2009, 08:08:25 PM »
 :aok +1 :salute
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Offline Krusty

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2009, 08:32:16 PM »
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109k4&p2=109g14

Your acceleration argument is false. The only difference is on the highest end of acceleration, at which point you won't notice it as much. When folks use "acceleration" as a characteristic they imply low or mid level speeds' acceleration (regaining E), in which case the G14 is almost exactly identical to the K-4. Only reason the K-4 accelerates better to 300mph is because it has a higher top speed overall. All planes stop accelerating near their peak speed as drag builds.

Your handling is perception is inaccurate. G14 actually more manuverable than a K-4. They both have the tall rudder so in regards to torque both have better control at slow speeds (compared to G-6 and previous models).

Your climb rate argument is false. The two planes trade off back and forth but are about equal up to 20,000 feet.

The only speed difference is 20mph at sea level and probably 25mph at 16k. For MA use it's a noticable drop but not worth adding a plane halfway between them, 10mph faster than the G14 and 10mph slower than the K-4, as the G-10 would be.


So, uh... YES... to anybody that can objectively look at the stats, they ARE almost the same.


However you've proven as far from objective as can be in this argument you keep repeating over and over.

When you plug your ears and go "la la la!! I want my 20mm!!!" it sounds like a "I wanna I wanna GIMME!" argument rather than one with merit.

At least previous requests for the G-6/AS or G-14/AS were well phrased and legitimately argued.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 08:39:03 PM by Krusty »

Offline wrag

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2009, 11:23:35 PM »
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=109k4&p2=109g14

Your acceleration argument is false. The only difference is on the highest end of acceleration, at which point you won't notice it as much. When folks use "acceleration" as a characteristic they imply low or mid level speeds' acceleration (regaining E), in which case the G14 is almost exactly identical to the K-4. Only reason the K-4 accelerates better to 300mph is because it has a higher top speed overall. All planes stop accelerating near their peak speed as drag builds.

Your handling is perception is inaccurate. G14 actually more manuverable than a K-4. They both have the tall rudder so in regards to torque both have better control at slow speeds (compared to G-6 and previous models).

Your climb rate argument is false. The two planes trade off back and forth but are about equal up to 20,000 feet.

The only speed difference is 20mph at sea level and probably 25mph at 16k. For MA use it's a noticable drop but not worth adding a plane halfway between them, 10mph faster than the G14 and 10mph slower than the K-4, as the G-10 would be.


So, uh... YES... to anybody that can objectively look at the stats, they ARE almost the same.


However you've proven as far from objective as can be in this argument you keep repeating over and over.

When you plug your ears and go "la la la!! I want my 20mm!!!" it sounds like a "I wanna I wanna GIMME!" argument rather than one with merit.

At least previous requests for the G-6/AS or G-14/AS were well phrased and legitimately argued.


From the charts you posted looking at.....

Top-End Acceleration (Low Alt)

Which IMHO is probably the MOST important area regarding acceleration from 250 to 300.........

Big difference in time 17.4 vs 21 seconds

Thats a considerable amount of time in a furball.

And I've flown both the K4 the G14 at all alts in the same manner and the G14 was with just the 20mm and it FAILS repeatedly where the K4 gets you through.

Thinkin it has to do with that just over 3 and a half seconds in gettin up to, or recovering speed!


Where do you get there about equal in climb rate up to 20K?

Lookin at the chart G14 and K4 can only be compared up to about 7k and without wep K4 clearly wins everywhere except at about 7K


As to speed and your claim of being comparable up to 16K I can't get a G14 to do better then 318 at 16K after 3 minutes on wep?  Hey the K4 goes way faster then 318 at 16K!  Sorry but that statement probably makes you look pretty silly to anyone that's flown a K4 at 16K and noticed the speed it could reach.


As to G14 handling better? Maybe it does but it sure seems to me to do it slower!  I've shot down a LOT of G14 with a K4 in a low alt turn fight.  Why?  Cause it WALLOWS where the K4 is smooth.

Killed a few G14 using a G6 low alt.  Killed a few G14 with a G6 at and slightly above 16k too.


Thinkin your reading those charts and stats with a very strong desire to make the G14 better then it is.


Face it!  It's the LOW ALT JABO version of the 109.  Why?  I have no idea!  If I want to do JABO with a LW ride I will take up a F8 or 110 THANK YOU.

Makes little sense to me when they could have added the G14AS.

So why did HTC chose what IMHO is a slow wallowing heavy handling dog like the G14?

Did you fly it in the DGS scenario?  I and several others did and it's the opinion of most of those that flew it during the test frame that it was a dog above 16K!

Seems the scenario planers agreed and we got MANY K4 from that point on!


Your argument regarding the MA is INVALID as not everyone flys in the MA the way you do!

Some people enjoy a few 20K + fights!   I know I've been in a few (mostly with Rooks although I've been seeing more Bish doing it lately)

Thinkin you may be MIS-stat n here?

So who is holding their ears and going lalalalalala?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Cajunn

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2009, 12:25:06 AM »
FW 190A9 please :D had to get my plug in there. Oh and the K4 is a lot better then the G14, just wish it had 20mm package.But even in stall fights the K4 just seems so much more under control then the G14, G14 doesn't recover as good IMO.
“The important thing [in tactics] is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions. However, doing this alone is defensive.”

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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: We need a 109G10
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2009, 10:09:14 AM »
Krusty, Krusty, Krusty...

"The only difference" = "They are the same?"

Come now. 

Your acceleration argument is false. The only difference is on the highest end of acceleration, at which point you won't notice it as much. When folks use "acceleration" as a characteristic they imply low or mid level speeds' acceleration (regaining E), in which case the G14 is almost exactly identical to the K-4. Only reason the K-4 accelerates better to 300mph is because it has a higher top speed overall. All planes stop accelerating near their peak speed as drag builds.

There is a difference in acceleration throughout the speed range.  0.30 seconds from 150-200, 0.50 seconds from 200 to 250 and a whopping 3.60 seconds from 250 to 300.  All are noticeable.  The end result of those figures, as the difference compounds while speed increases, is that the K4 walks away from the G14 handily.

Further, while your definition of "acceleration" is fun and while your assessment of what "folks may use acceleration to describe" is also neat, its pretty immaterial.  Acceleration is acceleration.  Both aircraft have speeds well in excess of 300 on both Mil and WEP.  The fact that you've attempted to cite top speed, and the corresponding drag as engine power begins to lose its battle with the friction of the air, is strange since that argument clearly shows the G14's significant inferiority, when compared to the K4.  This stands in contrast to your statement.

Quote
Your handling is perception is inaccurate. G14 actually more manuverable than a K-4. They both have the tall rudder so in regards to torque both have better control at slow speeds (compared to G-6 and previous models).

If his "handling" argument is inaccurate, due to subjectivity, then so is yours, by default.  Since it cant very well be quantified beyond such simple tests as sustained turn radius, its a waste of our time to discuss it.

Quote
Your climb rate argument is false. The two planes trade off back and forth but are about equal up to 20,000 feet.

There is only one "trade off," which is altitude dependent and which lasts for... not very long.  Beyond that, "About equal" is as flawed a statement as "what folks say."  Paraphrasing, of course.

At Mil power, the K4 has a distinct advantage in climb rate for roughly 96% of the altitudes tested.  The G14 matches and juuuuuuuust exceeds the K4 for a few seconds between about 5,500ft and 6,000ft.  After that, the K4 pulls regains the advantage it has getting to 5,500ft and holds it the rest of the way, ultimately eclipsing the G14 by some 500FPM.  If that was "about equal" I would concede.  Since it's not, I wont.

Under WEP, the G14 simply extends its brief advantage to between about 5,500ft and 7,500ft.  After that, the K4 again regains its advantage ultimately, you guessed it, exceeding the G14's climb rate by some 500FPM.  Not equal.

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The only speed difference is 20mph at sea level and probably 25mph at 16k. For MA use it's a noticable drop but not worth adding a plane halfway between them, 10mph faster than the G14 and 10mph slower than the K-4, as the G-10 would be.

More "the only difference" type stuff.  Let me help with some perspective since numbers are bland and there seems to be a disconnect between what the numbers mean and how they manifest themselves in the arena.

You state that the 109G14 and the 109K4 have a speed difference of 20MPH at sea level and 25MPH at 16,000ft.  You concede that this is noticeable but not worthy of plugging the gap with another aircraft.  I say its huge and I'll show you why.

For this example, we'll examine the Corsairs.  Well take the "worst," the F4U-1 and the "best," the F4U-4.  The former represents the first generation, poorer performing mark and the latter is, by all accounts, the best airplane in the game.

At low altitude, under Military power, the F4U-4 has a top speed advantage of 10MPH.  Under WEP, the F4U-4 has a top speed advantage of 22MPH.

Now, we'll go back the the G14 and the K4.  Your numbers need some fixin' first.  At low altitude, since we can clearly quantify it on the website, the K4 holds a Military speed advantage of 30MPH and a WEP speed advantage of 29MPH.

Lets recap the differences:

F4U-1 v. F4U-4
Military:  10MPH
WEP:  22MPH

Bf-109G14 v. Bf-109K4
Military:  30MPH
WEP:  29MPH

Shocking, eh?  The best plane in the game, The F4U-4, and its first generation cousin, the F4U-1, the equivalent of the Bf-109E-4 mind you, have a lesser speed difference than the G14 and the K4; aircraft boasting performance differences which, in your words are "not worth adding a plane halfway between them."

Well thats a silly argument.  How many Corsairs are in between the -1 and the -4?  I count three.

Anyway, the point there is that if you dont notice a difference in performance between the G14 and the K4, you might as well never spend perks on the dash-four Hog because, next to the 109's, the Corsairs are the same exact plane.


Quote
So, uh... YES... to anybody that can objectively look at the stats, they are LIGHTYEARS apart in performance.

Fixed that part for you and deleted the rest so you dont look so silly.

Cheers.