Author Topic: Zoom Climb Test Methodology  (Read 4168 times)

Offline moot

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Re: Zoom Climb Test Methodology
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2009, 12:33:39 PM »
But, there needs to a much more comprehensive set of tests done at various speeds to best understand an aircraft's zoom potential.
Absolutely..
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Zoom Climb Test Methodology
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2009, 01:08:24 PM »
Hmmm...the 262 test surprises me. I thought a 262 was a couple of rather low thrust jet engines strapped to a slick airframe. I had assumed the mass/drag ratio would be quite high. Hmmmm...
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Zoom Climb Test Methodology
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2009, 02:24:26 PM »
Widewing did you use WEP during your tests? I assume you must have, to get 344mph with the P-38L I was just wondering.

The reason I choose to perform my test at max speed (no WEP) was to achieve a consistent result for all aircraft. In my opinion, by selecting an arbitrary airspeed it changes the premises of the original question. By running the test at the assigned speed, you are in essence comparing an aircraft at it's maximum E state (P-38L) to one that's only at 64% of it's potential E state (Me 262).

However, I do see the value of this kind of testing it equate it to "real world" situations. But, there needs to a much more comprehensive set of tests done at various speeds to best understand an aircraft's zoom potential.

Real world data is considerably more useful to the average AH2 pilot than data taken using scientific method.

The problem with scientific data is that it is meaningless in the fluid, constantly changing realm of combat. This is especially true for zoom climb. Zoom climb is always related to E state. A Zero will run down a somewhat slower flying 109K-4 in a vertical climb. Zoom climb can vary based upon weight and based upon induced drag. It depends on many circumstances that will change from minute to minute, even second to second. A straight zoom climb is not a safe tactic unless the relative E states are vastly different. Indeed, I have killed many a fast fighter that I forced into an overshoot, but who simply flew by in a straight climb. The E state of bullets is always superior.

Scientific data is interesting, but reference knowledge is more practical in combat. Who would guess that a twin-engine medium bomber could easily run down a Co-E 262 in a vertical zoom? Likewise, there is little difference between a Ta 152 and the 262 when both start at 520 mph. indeed, there is not much difference between most fighters if they begin at equal E states.

In a fight, few aircraft will be anywhere near maximum speed. Those that are, are not really in a fight, per se. In a fight, the knowledge of the ability of any aircraft to transfer E into vertical displacement at relatively low E states is far more valuable than knowing how far up it can zoom at maximum level speed. Excluding the minor variances associated with mass and drag, the ultimate determining factor in zoom climb height is E state. Another factor significant to jets is available thrust. Early jets had relatively low thrust powerplants. At 100 mph, the Spit14 has far greater thrust than the Me 262. At 400 mph, this is reversed and the prop is now a major source of drag. This is one reason why the Spit accelerates so much faster than the 262 at low speeds (the other obviously being weight). If you map the zoom climb of the Ta 152 and 262 as I tested them, you will see something interesting.

Initially, the 152 decelerates faster than the 262. As speeds decrease, the rate of deceleration equalizes, with the 262 decelerating faster than the 152 as speeds approach 100 mph. The 262 pulls out a 400 yard lead, but as speeds drop, the 152 cuts that in half. This is due to the 152 having much less thrust at the beginning, but more thrust nearing the apogee of the climb.


My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 02:31:01 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline moot

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Re: Zoom Climb Test Methodology
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2009, 02:44:32 PM »
How could you best illustrate all this data?  I'm thinking bar graphs like the ones on Gonzo(?)'s, but animated.  Each graph with a different initial speed. The bars grow in real time or by a standard multiplier, up to an annotated peak.
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Offline Baumer

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Re: Zoom Climb Test Methodology
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »
I agree that practical data is more useful to most players of Aces High, the same argument can be said for the turning data that's presented in the other performance tools and references. I have spent several hours flying as directed by badboys bootstrap calculator. And to equate those data points to the actual combat experience is just as complicated. btw, thank you all so much for doing all that test flying. It's very tedious and demanding to get that data, so a big <S> to badboy, murdr, widewing and anyone else contributed to all that data.
 
Just as a comparison, I re-ran my P-38L test incorporating your configuration and this is the data from an auto-speed test. Once I reach max airspeed I initiated an auto-speed climb and engaged WEP.

P-38L
Weight: 17,700lb
Fuel Burn Rate: 0.001
Initial TAS: 331mph
Initial Altitude: 61 feet
Max G: 2.8G
100mph IAS Altitude:4,305 feet
TAS at top of Zoom: 110mph
Zoom FPS:163.23 feet
Time of Zoom: 26 Seconds


So our testing yielded very similar results in max altitude with about a 50 foot difference, with you at Zero IAS and me at 100mph IAS. And interesting note, once the P-38 hit 100mph IAS it settled into an oscillating climb varying from 500 to 3000 fpm on the VSI. I assume that you reached your max altitude more quickly than I did, so that's probably another difference.

Thanks for the feedback Widewing, it's an interesting topic for sure.

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