Author Topic: What's So Special About The Bearcat?  (Read 3776 times)

Offline juzz

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2000, 01:20:00 AM »
At least the Focke Wulf's wings weren't designed to fall off...  

Offline Jekyll

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2000, 03:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
there isn't any hope for historically accurate game anyway anymore

And you've only just worked that out Fishu?

Man, you must be slower than I thought  

"Something wonderful had better happen damn soon"!

Offline maik

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2000, 06:31:00 AM »
Bring it in, and let the other Korean-War planes follow  .

Maik

Offline Vermillion

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2000, 06:42:00 AM »
 
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The Bearcat would be our best low to mid (everything in AH) fighter

I don't know Laz. While I agree that the Bearcat is a very capable and deadly aircraft, I can think of at least two, and maybe three that would give it a run for its money.

1.) F2G Super Corsair

and

2.) Yak3(vk107)

The Yak3 is definitely the fastest overall (around 450mph from memory), but I would have to check its SL speed to be sure. But like all Russian fighters it fights best down low like the Bearcat.

Actually I would have to check the numbers, but I believe a La7 would also perform very similarly to the Bearcat (420 max, 380 SL, and goodclimb rates).

If I had to personally choose between all these fighters, I think I would have to go with the F2G Super Corsair. You just can't beat 3,000+ horsepower down low, with the ruggedness of a radial and the classic Corsair airframe  

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-lazs-

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2000, 08:43:00 AM »
geeze.... The only thing about the Bearcat that is 190 like is some of the dimensions.   EVERY aspect of the Bearcat is a direct evolutionalry change from othe U.S. aircraft and as the picture shows... A direct copy of the Hellcat in most features.   Name one feature that is copied from the 190.   The Bearcat is far superior to the 190 in every way.

Verm... Hmmm... Them soviet planes would be good if they performed like the engineers claim but... Looking at "Soviet AC of the 2nd WW" shows that they rarely (never) did.

The Bearcat shout have better sustained turn in any case... Better durability and reliability and, the Bearcat did perform well at high alts.   It still had the excellent PW supercharger system.
lazs

Offline Westy

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2000, 08:46:00 AM »
"At least the Focke Wulf's wings weren't designed to fall off...  "

 "Wingtips" ya knuckle head.  Yet more "dis-information"  from the Axis gallery.  

-Westy

Offline F4UDOA

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2000, 09:03:00 AM »
Gents,

Some interesting reading on the F8F-1 and F4U's in it's deployment together.

Dondald D. Engin, former Deputy commander and Cheif of the U.S. Atlantic Fleet, Captain of the Aircraft carrier U.S.S. America as well as a combat pilot in WW2 and Korea writes in his book "Wings and Warriors my life as a naval aviator"

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I do not recall who threw down the Gauntlet for a Commanding officer versus a Commanding officer Dogfight-from-takeoff showdown, but the idea caught on like wildfire. Each agreed to the combat, and the rules were set so the Lindsay in his F4U-1D and Joe Smith in his F8F-1 would line upon the runway at NAAS Santa Rosa and on a given signal release brakes: the first one on the others tail would win. The VBF-19 crew waxed Lindsay's old F4U-1D until the chippped, worn paint and aluminum skin shined, and they prepped the engine for all the power it could give. Smith's crew were a little more confident with their brand new and powerful airplane.

On the appointed day all hands from both squadrons lined both sides of the runway as each commanding officer taxied his A/C to stop with both wheels exactly on a broad white line painted across the runway for that purpose. Smiths Bearcat with it's R-2800-34W engine, was on the right. His engine purred and popped and sounded downright awesome. Lindsay's Corsair, with it's much older and tired R-2800-8W, was on the left. His engine was leaking a little oil as he sat on the starting line, but it ran smoothly, and the three-bladded-prop just ticked over waiting to respond. On signal, both pilots released their brakes and jammed on full power. The Bearcat slewed to the right and seemed to jump twice before leaping into the air sideways, as Smith retracted the landing gear to hold the airplane low on the runwayand accellerated. Lindsay's Corsair was slower accelllerating . He moved down the Runway at almost the same speed but with his wheels on the ground. Initially wing tip to wing tip, they slowly seperated as they tore down the runway, until Lindsay sucked up his landing gear, dropped 10Degrees of landing flaps, turned 30degrees to the left of the Runway heading, then snapped the F4U around to the right with his right wingtip just inches from the ground, and fell victoriously on the tail of Smith's F8F. They disappeared over the horizon at less than 100ft, and Lindsay had won.

End quote

Reportedly the F8F pilot jumped from his cockpit screaming that the F4U was overmodeled and no way it should do that.
Saying quote "He flying a F#$@ UFO!!"

Sadly Donald Engin who was the also the Curator of the National Air and Space Museum until this past year when he was killed in a glider accident. So many of our Hero's have fallen. However his book is the best account of the trasition of Naval airpower from the F6F to the F4 Phantom I have read with some great stories about the F6F, F4U, F7F, FJ-3, F8-Crusader and others.

Later
F4UDOA

BTW. the story of the Dogfight was during WW2. April 1st 1945 to be exact. So the F8F did see combat after all.

[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-30-2000).]

Offline Vermillion

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2000, 10:14:00 AM »
Laz, I think its just a matter of perspective.

If you think that all US aircraft off the production line performed up to the prototype specs, that are used in AH (and other games for that matter) for FM's, your fooling yourself.

Its just that the Soviets were the only country to look at another class of flight data.

Regardless of the Soviet stuff, you think the Bearcat is superior to the F2G as well?

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Offline GRUNHERZ

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2000, 10:46:00 AM »
Hi
Lets see how ill get into trouble with this one.  

The F2G was actually a bit slower than the F4U4 at most alts and sometimes up to 40mph slower. Its best feature was a very high climbrate. Basically it seems that the Corsair wasnt willing to go much faster than 450mph or so as a combat plane, and the added power went into making it climb faster.  I do think the Bearcat would be beter than the F2G it would fly circles around the heavier plane, it had almost the same climb rate, and it could be faster at many alts, plus it would definatly outurn it.But the F2G was pretty damn cool. It was apperently cancled because the Bearcat fulfilled its primary requirement of very high climb rate.
This is from a detailed Corsair book covering all the variants from prototype to various postwar developments, I think it was called corsair in detail and in scale, but ill check that again if you guys want me to.

thanks GRUNHERZ

Offline -lynx-

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2000, 11:04:00 AM »
Just to re-coup the facts from the above:

Grunherz/minus claim 190 to be the daddy of F8F based on 1 (one) phrase:  
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" if we put an R2800 in that thing we would have a world beater"

How can you read out of this "we copy this sucker, shove 2800 in it, redesign airframe to suit carrier ops, use diff airfoil, armaments, make it look so that no-one (but those two guys 60 years in the future) would ever suspect 190 lineage - and voila, we  will have a world beater" is kinda beyond me.

Hmmm... Look - it turns out that "Grumman designer" never flew the darn 190 anyway (designers rarely do flying bits) - it was a test pilot (they don't normally do design leave alone a concept for a new plane - surprise-surprise!) and all he said was that 190 would be even better performing fighter had it had more powerful radial (ie 2800) in it... Duh...

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[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-30-2000).]

Offline Kieren

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2000, 11:06:00 AM »
Most aircraft are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. All designers take effective ideas from every other designer (within the realm of possibility).

Think of it as having a big pile of parts in the middle of the room, and everyone is told to make a plane out of it. Likely you will have several planes, but no two would look exactly alike. They would be similar enough in appearance to argue the technology had been shared, and that is exactly the case here.

The F8F was a completely original design inspired not only by the Fw190, but several other aircraft extant. To say that the creation of the F8F is totally the result of any one plane is ludicrous.  

Offline minus

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2000, 11:17:00 AM »
 sems some people have realy problem asume the reality :--))))

i know many of u prefer style Top gun literature where the  Hero come and beat the half world :-))))))))

anyway is it rare but is many books from WW2 pilots who not sing the glory on all pages about himself  check P closterman Big Circus

if ex Spit  after Tempst pilot say the 190 was a real danger that mean maybe is it realy true

what u thing  what make the  acrobatic planes roll so well ?  ??????????

1 is sure the not use spit stil wings !  


Offline GRUNHERZ

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2000, 11:48:00 AM »
Hi

Lynx the point is there was no official Grumman policy or Navy requirement that the next high performace navy carrier fighter be a compact and relatively light design. The trend and expectations were for larger and heavier designs, as the hellcat and corsair were. When the Grumman test pilot flew the 190 and liked its performance abilities, that pointed Grumman into the direction of designing the Bearcat as a plane very much in the class of the 190, small, close coupled surfaces, nearly identical length, wingspan, same weight class, and with a very powerful engine. Again it just seems some of you fellas are just personally insulted at the very mention of the Bearcat being influenced by the overall design of he 190, what in the hell is so wrong with that? And of course it wasnt a direct copy of the 190, nobody ever said anything like that, tho lots of you guys imediatly jumped to that conclusion, and in fact your whole argument to the contrary was based on the obvious fact that the Bearcat doesnt look like a copy of the 190, clever huh? And yes the Bearcat is much better than the 190, why wouldnt it be? Would it make you guys feel better to know there is a very good chance that the 190 was itself strongly influenced by a certain prewar US airplane, can you guess which one that might be?

thanks GRUNHERZ

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 10-30-2000).]

Offline J_A_B

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2000, 12:22:00 PM »
The F8F was influenced by the FW-190.  Several of the successful features of the FW was incorporated into the F8F.  

That is similar to the P-51 being influenced, in part, by the Bf-109.

However, the F8F was also influenced by the F6F (its "parent"), the Zero, and plenty of other aircraft, as well as by what Grumman felt a warplane required.  It was very much an evolution of a concept, rather than a copy of a specific plane.

It was intended to be an interceptor.  Hence the high rate of acceleration and climb, and sterling turning ability.

Like the FW-190, the F8F uses a large radial engine in a small airframe.  They are similar size because that is about the smallest practical airframe possible with the given engines.  The small size of the F8F was an added plus because it allowed the F8F to operate off of the small escort carriers--thus finally dispensing with the need for the obsolete FM2's.


Saying the F8F is directly derived from the FW-190 is about as silly as claiming that the FW-190 is derived from GeeBee racers.  It was an evolution of the same concept.  It is only natural that planes derived from the same basic concept would be similar in many ways.

The comment made by the Grumman test pilot wasn't admitting that Grumman "copied" the German plane; it was a validation of the concept of high horsepower mated with minimal weight.  


J_A_B


Offline GRUNHERZ

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What's So Special About The Bearcat?
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »
Wasnt the GeeBee but it was a prewar US racer.