The K/D now and then

[Damned Goose]

Great thread, thanks for the research Lusche. Enjoying the feedback....

[Crash Orange]

The low used to resent their betters...and ape their manners, dress, and morals,  and otherwise do everything they could to join them.

Did I miss something, or didn't we have a revolution to get rid of all that nonsense?

IIRC what happened was we grew up and realized that believing you're too good to work for a living, being the product of generations of inbreeding, and having ancestors who owned tin suits and pointy sticks doesn't actually make you "better".

[kilo2]

Oh thought we might make it through 2 pages without the horde being brought up.

Nice research Lusche intresting

[BnZs]

Did I miss something, or didn't we have a revolution to get rid of all that nonsense?

IIRC what happened was we grew up and realized that believing you're too good to work for a living, being the product of generations of inbreeding, and having ancestors who owned tin suits and pointy sticks doesn't actually make you "better".

I was thinking more of the ideal of lady and gentleman we used to have, not inbred title holders. It isn't a matter of pedigree, although the bit about falling apples and trees is still statistically sound.

EDIT: For instance, the "thinking you are too good to work for a living" thing, that is a good example of what I mean. To clarify, I don't care whether you work or live off a trust fund or live off roots and berries in the woods, but the idea that one is entitled to someone else's money has permeated the common man.

FURTHER EDIT: The guys who owned the weapons, armor, and most importantly, skills and balls to use them, well, they WERE better than their fellow-man. But over many many generations, apples can roll quite far from the original tree indeed.

[Crash Orange]

no no no  and no.  The veteran players who have stuck around now have higher K/d than they used to because there are a lot more easy targets around. Back when there was more parity, the players had a harder time excelling.

Right. No one actually improved their skills while playing this game for 5 years, the 500 million people in the developed world who've never played it all got stupider.

Some guy named Occam called, he wants to speak to you.  

[Delirium]

I don't think any conclusions can be drawn with the limited information available, to attempt to do so would be rife with conjecture and hyperbole.

[Krusty]

I tend to agree with Del there.

Interesting to ponder though.

IMO the skill has DROPPED. You take any 2-weeker and stick him in a spit16 and he can STILL get multiple kills with no skill and repeat the process.

In tour 24 you didn't have this crutch. To do the same in any other spit would be the Spit5 or Spit9, both of which are slow as hell compared to the 40mph-faster Spit16.

In Tour 24 newbies might be able to run, or might be able to turn, but now? Now they can outrun and outturn almost anything they encounter (oh, and let's not forget outclimb, out accelerate, oh yeah and outroll!).

So, if we get this new, super, wonderful, crutch of a plane that catapults any loser into "ace" status, but the averages remain the same, I posit that average skill has DROPPED, but with newer easy-mode additions to the planeset, this inflates the numbers higher than they'd be if folks were pushed back in time into Tour 24.


Oh, and Wrongway: They may not have had a "bubble" per se, but it's what folks called it. The hit detection was fubar through all of AH1. 1.2k definite kills were the NORM. You weren't safe until you passed 1.5k in front of somebody. Keep in mind historic combat ranges were often 250 or LESS. Some spit aces liked to get in under 150 yards. 300 yards was considered "out of range"... So yeah we had a "hit bubble" in all but name, so folks used the term.


EDIT: That's more food for thought there!! If the numbers are eerily similar, but the skill required to get in and land hits on a plane has grown exponentially with the new bullet/hit detection models, that would imply skill has RISEN!! See how fun this is? So maybe the hit detection and the spit/UFO flight model cancel each other out? Heh heh heh, the options are endless.

[Steve]

Right. No one actually improved their skills while playing this game for 5 years, the 500 million people in the developed world who've never played it all got stupider.

Some guy named Occam called, he wants to speak to you.  

Poor comprehension got you down? The word "vets" means long time players who have acquired game skill.  

Parity was around because back then everyone had started about the same time so had similar skill sets. Geez... read, comprehend, then   respond.

[dhyran]

....
Tour 111.
I found that
- only ~37% of all players managed to get a K/D better than 0.5
- only ~22% of all players reached 1.0 or better
- only 9% ended up with a K/D of 2.0 or better
- the 50% threshold was at about 0.3


Tour 24
...
I found that
- about 37% of all players had a K/D better 0.5
- about 19% got 1.0 or better
- about 6% reached K/D 2.0 or better
- the 50% threshold was at about 0.27
..
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

Feel free to draw your own or none conclusions at all 

hi Lusche,

very intresting! when i started the ~<<~Loose Deuce~>>~ Squadron in December 08, i though after being in a squadron over 7 years with totaly mixed skills (from noob to aces all in one sqn) i wanted to start a sqn with equal pilot skills. So i wrote down a rule of member to be recruited should have a KD of 2 or more.
As you graph shows, i ran into the problem, only 9% are above those limits, 95% of these players were already organised in other squadrons. So i lower the entry level down to a KD of 1.0 to find pilots willing to join.
A couple of good Guys joined the LD, over the last 5 Month. In this time they all improve their KD ratio rapidly, sometimes they raised up from 1.5 to 4-5. A "lone wulf" needs a year to gain from 1.5 to 5, being in a squadron have a big influence on each pilots learning curve (if you only wants to learn the ropes and have enough patiance)
It simply shows, when an above average Pilot flys together with a group of also skilled Pilots, and when those Groups flys together, the unique SA can be added to an overal squadron SA. The death rate goes down, so KD wents up.
I think this has also an impact onto the overall stats. Just a thought, to have an overall SA it need years to reach that. So i think its also a development of the players of the game, some were able to cross the 2.0 line, but it needs lot of time to get there constantly.

btw. great work Lusche! (i love stat numbers too   )

<S>
dhyran

[Scotch]

Lower k/d can also be caused by fighting more...
higher k/d from running more...

[Urchin]

Right. No one actually improved their skills while playing this game for 5 years, the 500 million people in the developed world who've never played it all got stupider.

Some guy named Occam called, he wants to speak to you.  

Ever heard of turnover?  In 2001, people had been playing flight sims for years.  The entire population of the game consisted of people who loved WW2 planes, and <gasp> FIGHTING.  The average age of the population was easily in the 40s. 

The game today?  The average player has probably been playing for less than a year, and could give two ****s about the history of the planes.  If I had to guess, I'd say the average age might be in the mid to late 20s, but that might be overly optimistic.

The good players left. 

[The Fugitive]

Stats are great fun !  Like Del said there just isn't enough info to really draw any conclusion here, but they are fun anyway 

I think numbers/population really has a big play in this. In the old days 100 players in the arena wouldn't be far off. Using Lusche's numbers 20% would be in the upper end of the K/D, giving them a 1 in 80 shot of finding fresh meat. In todays numbers 400 is more likely, giving the upper end of guys a 1 to 320 shot of finding fresh meat. Maybe this is why it "looks" like the skill level has dropped so bad. Percentage wise there isn't any real difference of new or less skilled players, but the population explosion just increases the chance of running into one of them.

[Obie303]

Well Lushe, I've finished off a few beers and had a good nights sleep. The wife even ignored me for a bit as I was trying to explain the dynamics of the k/d ratio. 

I've read what the other's have posted and I agree that we could discuss this subject for a long while.  But I think that everyone posting here has a valid point that skills are declining or increasing based upon the change in the "fighting" community. 

I think Krusty pretty much described what I was originally trying to discuss.  I'm now more curious to see what planes were available in Tour 24.  Anyone here remember that far back?

Obie

[Kazaa]

Lower k/d can also be caused by fighting more...
higher k/d from running more...

+1

[Anaxogoras]

The same crap that burns me out on AH is the same crap that burned me out on Warbirds 10 years ago.  Hording, ganging, lack of aircraft variety, etc.

No doubt K/D means very little about skill, but what is true is that if we are close in skill level, a much larger proportion of us should have a K/D near 1, running away included.  The vast majority of virtual pilots are as unskilled today as they were years ago.