Myth: SpitXVI is "slow"

[BnZs]

Forget about the 20% thing.
By what benchmark of 'balance' would you say the Spit16 is unbalanced?  Look at the stats and tell me how the Spit16 is unbalancing the arena.

Do you actually want me to put together the list of planes in the set over which the SpitXVI enjoys greater speed,turning potential, and thrust/weight at typical MA altitudes? Or is that a rhetorical question?

I wouldn't call that fact, far from it in fact.  The F4UC has qualities such as speed, guns, ammo quantity, turn radius with full flaps, and endurance that would make it superior to the Spit16.  You do realize the F4UC out turns the Spit16 with full flaps engaged, turn fight on the deck?  As for the Spit14, don't know enough about it to comment. 

Yet the SpitXVI climbs and accelerates far better, is mostly faster below 10K, rolls better at most speeds, and has a better sustained rate of turn. And the full flaps radius of the F4U-1C is only a few feet smaller than that of the SpitXVI IIRC.

  If a plane has an incredibly solid K/D to go along with high popularity, then you can make a case for perkage.  The spit16 has high popularity, but not the K/D ratios that I would call unbalancing by any stretch of the imagination.

Well...you told me to forget about 20% usage. I am glad to see you adding k/d numbers to the bargain, which makes the P-40B that much less likely to be perked if 20% of the playerbase decides to fly it one month.

So what popularity numbers in combination with what k/d numbers constitute a perk justification?

[Krusty]

kills per death? since when?

Chog was perked for over-use, total kills. Not kills/death.

No kills/death is accurate, because death can be skewed by milk runners, perk farmers, 2 week newbies using crutches, timid cowardly pilots, attacking ground targets, NOT attacking ground targets, meanwhile the kills could all remain very high, while deaths fluctuate wildly.


Kills/death is mostly useless. Total % of kills (IMO) gives more indication of use or over-use. Consider that Spit16 just about equals P-51D, and spit16 added to spit8 (almost the same ride) MORE than surpasses the P-51D.

[Guppy35]

I think Hitech's message was clear.  Let it go.  it's not going to happen.

[Karnak]

Okay, that is uncalled for.

I have said the SpitXVI is faster than 70% of the plane set and 41% the LW plane set. That is true.

I have said that it out-turns, out-climbs, out-accelerates, and out-rolls a great deal of what it also runs down. This is true.

I have said that this perhaps greatly effects the viability of a very wide range of models in the MA. This should be self evident.

None of these are falsehoods. They constitute reason enough IMO to say that it perhaps warrants a light perk.

But if perking the Spixteen would cost too many noob's subscriptions, understood. You don't slaughter the milk cow in tough times.

And I and others have explained and explained and explained why your simplistic numbers don't tell the truth only to be told each and everytime by you that we don't have eny evidence or are flat out wrong.  Of course we don't have any "evidence" when you are the gate keeper of what evidence is acceptable and you disallow any evidence that doesn't support your predetermined position.

[Krusty]

Karnak, I don't think you HAVE proven him wrong. The spit16 is superior in at least 2 ways to most of the planes it will ever come up against.

You're all trying to convince him it's not worthy of perks, and you all keep repeating yourselves, but from my reading of this thread you forget to make a credible argument WHILE repeating yourselves.


As for Hitech, I'm not sure what he means. I'm re-reading his words, and wondering if he is cautioning against unperking planes (misunderstanding the problem?), or if he is saying he's not going to get into perking anything (needed or not).

Maybe I'm just dense right now, I don't know what he was getting at.

[Delirium]

I have said the SpitXVI is faster than 70% of the plane set and 41% the LW plane set. That is true.

And the vast majority of vets in AH don't fly it routinely. If they did, the numbers would change dramatically and I'm sure HTC would get involved. Until it does, this thread and all the other threads about the Spit16 is simply beating a dead horse ad nauseaum.

I think Hitech's message was clear.  Let it go.  it's not going to happen.

Yep, if it was going to happen it would of happened a long time ago. I look at the Spit16 as an opponent that makes me work a little harder and AH isn't about getting kills or taking bases; it is about improving ones self within the game.

[BnZs]

disallow any evidence that doesn't support your predetermined position.

My "predetermined position"? I used to tell people they were *crazy* for wanting to perk the SpitXVI, after all, the poor slow little dear won't catch much of anything that can't turn with it if the pilots use their heads and keep their speed, will it? Turns out I was *wrong* with that assumption.

[BaldEagl]

Just give it up already.  Sheesh.

[Banshee7]

Someone pinch me...I actually agree with Baldeagl.....scary 

[grizz441]

No kills/death is accurate, because death can be skewed by milk runners, perk farmers, 2 week newbies using crutches, timid cowardly pilots, attacking ground targets, NOT attacking ground targets, meanwhile the kills could all remain very high, while deaths fluctuate wildly.

Wrong again Krusty.  Total Kills tells almost the exact same information as the stat of Plane Popularity does.  K/D shows to what degree that plane in particular is dominating.  As popularity increases, game play variation that you described above goes to the norm of the MA.  The reasons you listed above are why you can't only look at K/D when popularity might be low. (Less than say, 5% of total kills)  So I guess I'd agree with you k/d is a worthless stat if there isn't a high sample size...just like any other stat.   

So what popularity numbers in combination with what k/d numbers constitute a perk justification?

Good question.  It would vary to some degree but there probably are some minimum values that need to be achieved first.  Both would have to be quite high compared to the other unperked aircraft and the greater standard deviations one is further from the norm, the less the other would have to be. 

If I had to throw some random stats out there for you, I'd say plane popularity would have to be in >15% range of total sorties.  K/D would have to be maybe in the range >1.4?  And depending on exactly where each number falls in, the other wouldn't have to be quite as high to justify perk. 

If the Ta152 could quadruple its following and still maintain a dominating K/D, I think you could almost justify perking it again.  I don't think that's possible though because it shouldn't be a perk worthy plane performance wise, and I have a hard time believing it could quadruple its following and have all those new 152 pilots dominate with it like the few that do currently.  If however it could somehow acquire a massive following that learn how to use it to its strengths and crush the MA, it would be affecting the balance of the MA.  Perk would be necessary.

On the same token, if the Spit16 could raise its average K/D of say.. 1.1 to 1.6, then you can talk perk.  This is where the whole balance thing comes into play.

[Steve]

Turns out I was *wrong*

yup 

[Krusty]

So you agree with him when he says he was wrong to say the spit16 can be outrun by most planes in the game?

You agree it can NOT be escaped from when you're in most other planes in the game?

[Karnak]

Karnak, I don't think you HAVE proven him wrong. The spit16 is superior in at least 2 ways to most of the planes it will ever come up against.

That can be said of many other aircraft as well.

The Spit XVI is very, very good.  It is not worth perks though.

Maybe I'm just dense right now, I don't know what he was getting at.

You're being dense.  HiTech said that people have explained it to BnZ and that he refuses to understand that.

For what it is worth, I do understand his point of view and I agree that the Spitfire Mk XVI is on the short list of fighters on the cusp of being good enough to be perked, but it isn't over that cusp as is readily aparent by the fact that it does not dominate the MA.

[Anaxogoras]

Appeal to authority + appeal to ridicule = non-logical persuasion.

[straffo]

Appeal to authority + appeal to ridicule = non-logical persuasion.

Do you really think thats "logical persuation" would ever work ?