Small Rant

[Sundog]

Another Idea to increase more realistic buff missions, may be a formation command.

For instance, assume five `players' want to fly a buff mission. Two go in one BUFF and one each in the other BUFF's. Now once they are all airborne, the BUFF with two players aboard is the dedicated LEAD aircraft since it has a pilot/bombadier and a gunner. The other BUFFs then type `.formleft XXXXX', `.formright XXXXX', `.formtrail XXXXX'. The LEAD aircraft would then have control of all the BUFFs and the formation would tighten up. This would allow formations of very large sizes to be formed.

However!!!!! That is alot of MASS (No pun intended     ). As such, control response would be very slow, and flight speed would have to be LOW enough to allow the planes to react to control response of the formation. I think this would make bombing more fun (Real box formations for defense) and attacking those formations a real challenge.
And the actual carpet bombing if they make target would look really cool too!

Now, of course, everyone would go for the lead aircraft. It wouldn't have to have a crew of 2 (Could be AP stabilized while pilot off gunning ...as it is now). But if the dedicated lead gets downed, the lead just switches to one of the planes at the front of the formation, etc, until they get home or until they are all downed. Once they are near home, have the guys in the rear of the formation type `formbreak' and as they do, they regain control of their individual buffs for landing and peel off.

Can HTC do this and what do you other AH'ers think of this?

[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sundog (edited 02-08-2000).]

[popeye]

Sorry Sundog.  Fighter pilots need to master ACM and gunnery, I think buff pilots should master formation flying.

Good news on the gunsight.  Hope bomb dispersion is in there too.  Give high level bombers the ability to do some strategic damage with a well places salvo, but make it much harder for them to take out individual small targets.

popeye

[pzvg]

Nope, not performance at all, organization
that's what is missing, WW2 Lufwaffe pilots
took off ahead of incoming buffs with enough time to reach those buff's alt because 1, they knew what alt they were at, 2, they always came in at that alt, and 3, they had 2-3 hours to get into position. Flight times in the arena generally are too short (no way around that, we want to play, right?) so the only way to do a buff intercept is to roll at the same time the buff rolls, impossible unless you are a mind reader. We don't really fly Interception missions per se, the average mission in AH could be described as a loose cross between Barcap and Frie Jagd
which means the only High alt intercepts possible are from those people who can get there in time, usually the guys who were there anyway for whatever reason. This probably won't change given the time constraint which has to remain in the game,
(I'm not flying 6.5 hours to bomb a target)
but if we alter the bombing code then perhaps we will either see A0 buffs at lower alts, or B) buffs having to use formations
a large swarm of dots near a buff field would clue people pretty fast to start grabbing, as well as add some tactical spice, eg; fighters take off en mass from buff field, then streak low level to jabo enemy base while it's defenders strain to haul up to buff alts  

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[Kieren]

Oh, we can all see the big strikes forming, and often call them out. Sometimes we don't have the luxury of doing anything about it (heavily outnumbered, trying to save few remaining bases).

I could also say this (hypothetically); at 9:00 PM EST I will be over Bishop HQ at 40K dropping 1,000 lbers, and there wouldn't be a thing you could do to stop me. That's a fact.   If I can get 2-4 guys to come with me you will be in the dark for a couple of hours.

Oops! Missed this:

 

so the only way to do a buff intercept is to roll at the same time the buff rolls, impossible unless you are a mind reader.

Won't work. You will replane a couple times due to fuel before the buffs reach your airspace.  

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 02-08-2000).]

[Pongo]

Bloom.
The important note is that we were all at far away fields when you were identified west of 20. We all took off from the ground at 17..We all made the intercept. If some one had id'd you south of 24...we would have had hight on you. Foxes dive was suspected as a diversion, but it really doesnt matter, he can still have bombs.. I really got a good hit on Wolf with my 109 gun buss, I a glad that he got a clean kill on me not a mutual kill that was awarded to him.
I was closing on you in my second 109 when you where shot down at 19...There is no problem with intercepting 25-30k bombers...



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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Sundog]

What I was recommending was something that would have the BUFFs fly more like they did back in World War II. They couldn't fly as fast as they do in here now and hold formation. Due to the aerodynamics (wake effects and circulation effects and just being able to hold formation) the buffs couldn't fly as fast as they do in here and hold formation.

Now if it is about organization, etc, then lets model the wake effects, etc. then the BUFF pilots flying formation will have to T-back to take those effects into account. I agree on organization when attacking the BUFFs, and the ability to do what I proposed in combination with the changes being made to the bomb site will add the need to carpet bomb. Based on what I see now though, which is usually one or two buffs hitting a field, rarely more, I just thought it would be great to be able to let people who wanted to have mass bomber formations without the hassle of doing so manually, and requiring fewer players to do so, would just add to the fun, since most bombing attacks were rarely carried out by single heavy bombers (at least in daylight).

Of course, depending on what HTC does to that bomb site accuracy, is there the possibility we may need some low level fast attack bombers? Mossies would be a nice addition  .

[Kieren]

B26 makes a pretty good fast attack bomber right now- I'd rather see Ju88's added for Axis.

[lemur]

Uhm... Why oh why can't we get altitudes reported on the radar? Even just a teeny number on the 'bars' on the map reporting the max alt of a bogey in that sector?

Certainly WW2 radar had some of this capacity.

At least then we'd be able to effectively scramble against the 30K buffs. We'd look at the map and go "Oh look, the highest guy in that group is at 30K. I better grab a g-10"

~Lemur

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Actually, German radar had no altitude capability. Allied ones, especially late war could do it but only in a rough sense of +/- 5000 ft. And the farther the range the worse they were at it. Most german intercepts were spotted visually and relayed to fields farther inland.

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If your in range, so is the enemy.

[juzz]

Sorrow, that's just ridiculous. Where did you read that? How can a radar not provide altitude information?

[Kieren]

Hate to say it Juzz, but I've read more or less the same thing. You had to be very close, and even then it only gave a range of alts. My impression is that it was as much an art as a science.

[combat23]

After the BoB the Germans developed a radar system to cover France and the Low countries.
Dont know about the spelling but Feya was a long range radar that from  stations in France could pick up Brits forming up for a strike while still over England, once they got high enough. Wutzberg was a shorter range radar that had height finding ability. Don't recall how accurate it was.

What ever combo (radars, eyes, magic,ect.)it was, the interseptions were good enough(Hight , position,)to cause the British to start using very low level strikes, gaing height just be for crossing the French coast to cut down on the Germans reaction time.

Will try to find some more info on the German radars.

See ya on line

[juzz]

Freya for long range, and Wurzburg to track individual targets at shorter ranges. The Wurzburg must have given altitude info somehow, as they used it to guide nightfighters. One Wurzburg(red) would track a bomber, and another Wurzburg(blue) the intercepting nightfighter. They put the three radars in areas known as Himmelbett zones.

[Kieren]

I think the airborne intercept gave altitude in relationship to the pursuing aircraft, and there was a range only as stated before. The Mark I eyeball still did the final contact.

[pzvg]

Height finding radar was not in mass use by the end of the war, and early HF sets had a very limited range, most wartime intercepts
used the generic rule of thumb, mass formation hence bombers, starting intercept alt 20k,moving up to actual intercept alt based on reports from earlier intercepts,also bear in mind in the real deal buffs were intercepted from the time they hit the coast all the way to the target and back.

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"