Author Topic: Tiffy / Tempest flaps  (Read 1037 times)

Offline Kev367th

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Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« on: May 30, 2009, 05:50:32 PM »
Getting info on maximum permissible speeds for flap deployment seems impossible.

There are plenty of pilot anecdotes on there use at speeds obviously in excess of 160mph (our limit), but no hard and fast numbers.

For eg -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/94/a2117594.shtml

Clearly states the use of flaps to slow down and turn to avoid overshooting a 109. As the 109 was scooting home back over the Channel it would be reasonable to assume he was going quite a bit faster than 160mph.

So the question remains - flap deployment speeds!!!!!!

[edit] Just noticed that further into the article it mentions dropping flaps to tighten the turn while between 250-300mph.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 05:54:29 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline moot

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2009, 05:59:53 PM »
If you can find some details of the flap construction, Pyro could possibly approach from the other end - finding the weakest point in the assembly and setting the max speed for that part.
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2009, 06:18:00 PM »
If you can find some details of the flap construction, Pyro could possibly approach from the other end - finding the weakest point in the assembly and setting the max speed for that part.

It might be a way. Good idea.

I personally wouldn't champion it using that method.
I have always asked for hard and fast evidence when discussing changes to aircraft performance.

That is the main reason I am against giving the K4 1.98ata, there isn't one single shred of hard evidence to back it up. So I could hardly ask others to accept anything less from me.
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Offline moot

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2009, 06:27:52 PM »
Yep, just an idea.  If nothing else, that one data point could help figure out the rest of the data.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2009, 06:38:18 PM »
Why not just go with the published limit like they do with everything else?
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2009, 06:45:51 PM »
Typhoon's Pilot's Notes list flaps down speed limit as 155mph IAS. For post war Tempest II the limits are 210mph IAS for 20 degrees and 160mph IAS for fully down position...I doubt they are much different for Mk.V.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 06:47:39 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2009, 07:02:36 PM »
Typhoon's Pilot's Notes list flaps down speed limit as 155mph IAS. For post war Tempest II the limits are 210mph IAS for 20 degrees and 160mph IAS for fully down position...I doubt they are much different for Mk.V.

Seen them.
For the Tiffie it doesn't say if that is for max flaps, or initial flap deployment.
Also doesn't mention they used the radiator flap as an airbrake, but they did.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2009, 07:04:29 PM »
Also doesn't mention they used the radiator flap as an airbrake, but they did.

...As could many other planes but radiator flaps aren't modelled in AH.
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2009, 07:11:15 PM »
...As could many other planes but radiator flaps aren't modelled in AH.

True, was just pointing out that the available pilots notes seem to be a bit lacking.

Interested in the Tempest post war 20 degree flaps, interestingly and it didn't 'click' until now - many Tempest wartime pilot combat reports mention 20 degrees flaps.
Could it be it isn't as postwar as it seems?

[edit] Had to add this passage that I found while trawling the net -

"Typhoon aircraft JR362 was taxiing along the perimeter, about 1800 hrs, 28 April 1944, behind an aircraft of 440 Squadron which turned off the perimeter track to a road leading into dispersal, when an M.T. vehicle which appeared in front of JR362 resulted in a crash, causing slight damage to the aircraft and severe damage to the vehicle."

Knew Tiffies were rugged but geez!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 07:52:26 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 09:08:21 PM »
Nothing in the text you found says that the impact of the plane with the vehicle caused the damage. This is a pretty good example of why anecdotes are not accepted is proof positive and for good reason.
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2009, 11:31:07 AM »
Nothing in the text you found says that the impact of the plane with the vehicle caused the damage. This is a pretty good example of why anecdotes are not accepted is proof positive and for good reason.

Totally agree, look at my comments a few posts up.

The passage was just thrown in for a laugh. Plane strikes vehicle, vehicle comes off 2nd best.

It wasn't an anecdote, it was from an aircraft incident damage report.
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Offline Kweassa

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Re: Tiffy / Tempest flaps
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2009, 11:49:53 AM »
Quote
Also doesn't mention they used the radiator flap as an airbrake, but they did.

Everything comes down to how HTC chooses to represent/depict the 'reality' of aerial combat. I've mentioned this in some of my older posts (going back many years, I'm afraid) through the term I've coined as a case between "Technical Reality" vs "Situational Reality".

Once again, the useful comparison in the form of 1C:Maddox's IL-2 series.

IL-2 is a classic example of reality represented in the form of "Technical Reality" - they pay attention to the details in how a plane can technically be handled, as directly opposed to the HTC/AH approach, in which an arbitrary standard is sometimes used to limit how one handles the plane, so to preserve the integrity of the "Situational Reality".

For example, in IL-2 the prop pitch governing the engine RPM of the Bf-109 series can be manually handled, as it could be done with the real plane. The pilot may disengage the CSU-type of prop management, and by means of manually altering the prop pitch to allow higher engine RPMs than standard/automatically-governed settings, in effect he can push the plane into a temporary - and ABNORMAL - WEP effect. Such use of manual prop pitch augmentation is also documented in history, in which 109s seeing service in the Northern Europe sometimes used this method in take-off runs from short and small airfields.

Ofcourse, in any case such use was exceptional and rare, and certainly most pilots would not dream of increasing the management workload during the heat of combat. It is a "technical possibility", but remains an adamant "situational improbability". However, the casual and comfy combat environment of the game pilot, has allowed this technical possibility to become a SOP during combat. The 109s fighting in IL-2 multiplayer sessions, are piloted by gamers who use this abnormal WEP to the extremes - which resulted in 109s outperforming many of the planes in may areas which it normally shouldn't. This gave rise to a huge debate on the "gaminess" in the IL-2 boards, and was thoroughly discussed. However, since the game itself was designed that way, the countermeasures introduced in later versions of IL-2 were relatively ineffective in preventing how people played the game.

On the other hand, despite the fact that the 109s technically do have the ability to disengage the CSU, in AH it is not allowed. The prop pitch angles, and how they effect the RPM is strictly locked to basic RPM changes according to the factory setting. The end result, is that in a broad sense the 109s in AH fly and fight more realistically than in IL-2. In a twist of irony the 'unrealistical' limit more or less enforces the game pilot to fly 109s under conditions which would be more representative of WW2 era combat tendencies.


And, the above applies exactly same to flaps.

Anecdotes may tell a story in which a talented pilot would deploy flaps well over the standard limits, but just how representative is that, when you consider the gross average of pilots flying the plane?