The DeVine 109

[Minotaur]

Maybe I should have labled this thread "The DeWhine 109".  I do not bring issues like this up on a "Happened Once" scenerio.  It has happened enough times for me to notice the pattern.  Take it for what it is.  

IMO the 109 is just too tough.  Let me be very clear.

I AM NOT talking about the 109 in regard to:

• Flight Model
• Armament
• The small size of the A/C
• The relative skill of players who fly them
• Netlag

I AM talking about the 109 in regard to:

• The 109 as it is modeled in AH
• When hit sprites show the plane was actually hit
• The A/C's ability to take a licking and keep on ticking
• The relative toughness of the plane compared to the rest of the AH fighter planeset

Condsider that I am no expert, but common knowledge dictates that the larger the A/C is, generally the harder (or tougher) it would be to shoot down.  The 109 is the smallest plane in the set?

To compare relative toughness, answer these questions.  How many times have you seen a 109:

• Flutter to the ground, nose straight up with its tail blown off?
• Show multiple hit sprites and then see it keep on flying normally?
• With a wing blown off?
• Smoking from engine damage?

Compare these answers to other planes in the AH set.  It does happen to the 109, but noticably more rare than with the other planes.

Please keep in mind I do not fly the 109 often.  My perpspective is from the shooting end of confrontations.

However, I do fly alot.  I shoot down all the planes in the AH set pretty often.  From that experience the AH 109 seems to soak too much lead, by comparison to other planes that should be inhierently tougher.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[Kieren]

Well...

I do fly it. Anything that saddles you for a 1-2 second burst will waste you. Parts pop off to-and-fro, engine oil gets punctured, etc. I made the comment to you about its size mainly because, if you keep it moving, you can make people miss you easier than in some other a/c. As for the sprites you see, I have no explanation you haven't already covered.  

[Hristo]

The later 109s had, among other improvements, more armor protection. Not all that much, but still did. Bomber interception became very important task for Luftwaffe planes 1943 onwards. Thus 109G-10 should be and is more durable than 109F-4 in AH.

In my experience, any cannon snapshot, from Shvak, Hispano or MG 151/20 usually does considerable damage.

If a Niki or F4U1-c pings me even once, even on slightest snapshot, I get damaged (9 out of 10 times). And rarely then it is just one part damaged. More likely it is wing +  engine oil + rudder etc.

1 second burst from P 51D kills my 109 for sure. Half a second burst from Spit.

Lose a wingtip in 109 means death, I never managed to land that.

I lost parts to spraying Hogs up to d9, Nikis up to d8 and to Spit up to d11 (lost whole wing there) ! Once 109 shot my wing off at d6+.

I'd rate 109 more tough only to Spitfire and P 51D. And those did not have to bother with armor, so I think it is right.



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-27-2000).]

[HABICHT]

 i only fly the g10.
let me say so, when i'm pinged, i'm dead.
usually loose a wing and/or engine damage.

so i think, when you hit a 109 with a
normal shoot, it is down.
only once were able to land a damaged 109.
the rest, my bird was too dameged to fly.
boommm /bail..

habicht
JG2 "richthofen"

[Minotaur]

Hmm?  Now I have another question.  How do you calculate a .5, 1 or 2 second burst?

Assume that ROF for most guns is approximatly 600.  That is roughly 10 rounds per second.  With a plane like the c.205 that is a total of 20 rounds per second.  Are you saying that it requires 5 to 40 rounds?

Don't believe I have ever seen 40 hit sprites when I lit up a plane.  I have shot down planes other than 109 with as little as 1 or 2 hit sprites, and as many as ~15.  The exeception being a BUFF.

Example --> from a c.205 vs 109 last night, all the hit sprites where results of snap shots:

• 1st pass - 1 hit sprite
• 2nd pass - 2-3 hit sprites
• 3rd pass - 4-6 hit sprites

This amounts to anywhere from 7 to 10 hits.  My thoughts at the time were "You have got to be kidding me!".

I can't say where exactly I hit the 109 at, the 2nd and 3rd passes were with 109 below the canopy dash.  IMO this 109 should have had major problems, but it was not effected in the slightess.

Like I stated before, this I find to be common for myself vs the 109.  If it happened only rarely, I would consider it my bad luck.  This is not the case.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-27-2000).]

[Hristo]

I don't calculate bursts, I watch enemy firing. Also, by relative plane paths I know if he has a snapshot or a steady shot.

OK, meet me in TA, I will let you fire single HS shells from any range.

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 02-27-2000).]

[Westy]

I've been flying the 109-F the past week. *Alot* And, well I can say that, Mino is about 1/2 right  
 However it is no way an uber plane by any stretch of the imagination.
  I find I die in it just as much as anything else and when heading into a furball I go for the Niki or other 109's first because I feel they are the easier planes to kill. F4U and then the 51 next.
 Although last night around field 11 if it was a '51 I started filling my Depends....  

 -Westy   (Rook 205 or 109 there last night)

[Kieren]

I too have been spending a lot of time in the 109F4 lately. It takes no more beating than any other plane I fly IMHO. Moreover, since I only carry light guns, I have to really work for a kill. No uberplane by any means!

I think I go for the Spits first in every engagement, assuming they are the highest plane (cardinal rule, high plane first!). The Spits can get alt back quicker than any other opponent, they can outturn you, outgun you, etc. After that it is a bit easier. It is really gonna be interesting when the Spit Vb and the c202 enters the arena.  

[Minotaur]

Hristo;

Thanks very much, I would love to do that!

Particularly, I would like to see if we can knock the vertical stabilizer off.  This seems to be "The Achilles Heel" of the c.205,  N1K2, F4U to some degree and particularly the P-51.

BTW, can you give me a good thrashing while we are at it?   I would love to learn some your ACM skills.  


All;

I don't remember calling the AH 109 an "Uberplane".  Most certainly, please do not turn this discussion into a flame war.  

Very simply, I just feel the relative toughness of the 109 is to high.  This by comparison to the other fighter planes in the set.

Forming my malformed opinion, today I hit a 109 from 51 that showed 4-5 hit sprites.  This was a snap shot at ~d250 and the 109 just flew away.  

Also today while flying <gulp> a G10, Hitech literally pasted me from a N1K2.  I did hear lots of pings before I exploded. <S>

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[Westy]

"I don't remember calling the AH 109 an "Uberplane". Most certainly, please do not turn this discussion into a flame war."

 Twas never my intent. I just used the word "uber" as a summation of my take on what you were refering to as the issues that seem to help the 109 out.  

 -Westy

[Minotaur]

Sorry.   Westy, please accept my apology.  I have seen these things get ugly in the past.  Guess I was a little gun shy.

BTW, thanks for your input.  I appreciate any help I can get.


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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
Trainer

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 02-29-2000).]