F4UDOA, you notice this with flaps?

[flakbait]

No flaps takeoff in a B-26 is beyond boring. A little torque, but nothing much. Throw in a notch or three of flaps and torque increases! I've noticed the same thing with the N1K2 and the Zeke. The P-38 has some weird stall and spin characteristics with flaps. It'll lift off the runway early with 'em full down. But if you get into a stall with flaps there's a little torque effect. The slip/skid ball moves about "." that far. Talk about strange.

You might want to see my thread about the F6F and F4U flight models getting swaped in the torque/stall/spin areas.

One other thing. Take a twin engine aircraft like the P-38 and only fire up one engine. From what I've read you could takeoff on one engine provided you were light. You can't even taxi on one engine; the plane just spins in place. This has gotta get fixed. As my room mate put it "Yew ain't got any engines, oil pump is shot, yer generator blew up, but we can fix yer flat tire in a jiffy!"


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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
 

[wells]

The P-38 didn't have a steerable nosewheel, it was castoring.

[CavemanJ]

The spinning caused by trying to taxi on one engine seems to come from the brakes on the dead engine side being locked once you stop moving.  This one's been mentioned several times I think.  A real annoyance sometimes.  The B-26 acts the same way.

[Tac]

The P38 with flaps will take off using half the runway it would use if its flaps were up. Its in the P-38 flight manual.

Flap effects and P-38 stall are so screwed it aint even funny.

I heard HTC said that flap effects werent modeled correctly, so I just have to wait and fly a really castrated P-38 in the meantime  

Cave: When you land a 1-engined P-38 it will go nice and straight until you get to near-stop speed...then it starts spinning like mad. Ive tried applying the break on one of the wheels, full rudder/aleirons, full flaps, dive flap... nothing makes it go straight. Makes you wonder how pilots even landed a 1 engined plane eh?  

[F4UDOA]

Flakbait,

I don't have as much time to respond or do any testing on the weekends as during the week so I'll make this brief and elaborate during later.

In many single engine fighters prop torque effect was more pronounced with full flap applied than without. This maybe because at lower speeds the A/C tend to fly at a higher AOA or this could be a result of the propwash, I will research it and give you a better answer.

However in a P-38 the strange effect to me is that it stalls at a higher speed with power than without. That is unique to the 38. The problem with the AH flaps that I see is the as the fuel burns off the stall speed should reduce considerably with the use of flaps and it does not. Even though I have a copy of the P38 pilots manual it is not as detailed as to the effect of flaps and fuel burn on stall speed.

Thanks
F4UDOA  

[flakbait]

Torque effect increasing for a single engine aircraft with flaps makes sense. But why does the B-26's torque effect increase with flaps? The Port engine would throw most of the prop blast down and away from the aircraft. While the starboard engine would really give that right-waist gunner a hard time. How do you light a smoke with a 200+ mph prop blast coming in through that right gunner's window?

As for the F6F vs. F4U bit, here's the skinny I got from Zeno's page and films.

F6F:
Hardly torqued on takeoff
Lifted off (combat weight) at around 80mph with NO flaps
Very gentile stall

Trim settings for takeoff:
Elevator: 0 Aileron: 0 Rudder: 1.5º right

F4U:
Torqued like a monster on takeoff
Lifted off (combat weight) at around 100 mph with NO flaps.
Very nasty stall, with a possible incipiant spin.

Trim settings for takeoff:
Elevator: 1º up Aileron: 6º right wing down Rudder: 6º right

See? In these respects the two flight models seem to be switched. You've proved flaps are really screwed up, and that the Corsair is FUBARed. Now if we could only get this fixed too.

 http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001322.html

Here's the link to the info I posted on the possible switcheroo with the FMs.


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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[Citabria]

VMC

[bolillo_loco]

This theory that the 38 stalled at a higher IAS with power on than it did with power off is very interesting indeed. also the fact that people think it is suppose to spin when stalled at either high or low speed is again an interesting theory.

I just watched the zenos warbird video again for this A/C the P-38. It was an eary version of the 38 that is easy to see. an E-H series. either way it states in the video that the power on stall speed occurs at around 70mph and no flaps are used. the power off stall of a P-38 is 94 mph IAS at 15,000lbs. so you can see that the stall speed of aroun 70 mph IAS no flaps is clearly lower than that of a P-38 at 94 mph IAS. also the video clearly states again that in either low speed stalls or high speed accelerated stalls there is no tendency to spin or to drop a wing, this data agrees with the pilots manual. the only thing stated in the pilots manual other than this is when you have flaps and gear down, the A/C tends to drop one wing when stalled, but quickly rights itself if you ease off on the colum and there is no tendency to spin.

also note on stall speeds the weights of the A/C 15,000lbs is a lighter weight than a P-38E-H series. One would have to assume that since it is a training film that they would use normal take off weights for early P-38s which was about 16,300lbs which also supports milo burchams take off distance of 1,500 to 1,800 ft for this A/C which he also states in the video.

[flakbait]

Bolillo, no one said it was supposed to spin or drop a wing when stalled. In Aces High it does drop a wing and may spin if you stall it. Especially with flaps. It's a problem and we're trying to get it fixed.

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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
 

[bolillo_loco]

  I didnt do it, I am sorry. it is my other evil half pollito_loco

[Tac]

"In Aces High it does drop a wing and may spin if you stall it"

Which is EXACTLY why the P-38 is so frustrating to fly. In a vertical dogfight or scissors you WILL get a (insert most insulting expletive here) spin & then stall like a moron and plunge to the ground. Happens WITH fowlers and without fowlers. To add salt to the wound, the P-38 is best in verticals.. and because of this BS stall & spin modeling its dangerous to take it there.

Tonight I cought a P-38 and rumbled with it from 22k. I was in a pony. He started to go vertical and in no time I saw "the" stall. It was horrible to see. I was at 250 speed and he surely was faster for he was pulling away from me on the zoom up part (45 degree zoom up climb after a loop). He mustve been pulling on the stick to go do another loop and thats when it hit. Wing dropped to the right so fast it looked like a FW190 on steroids and then his plane did 4 rolls and went into flat spin. And its very easy to hit a 38 in a flat spin. *sigh*
 
Talk about seeing yourself in that situation. Been there, hate it every time.

[flakbait]

Bolillo, no problem. Next time read a bit more of the thread and try to find out what we're getting at. Honest mistake, no worries.

Tac, I know what you mean. Even offline shooting drones for practice I see this. Spotted someone in the TA Sat. night in a P-38 doing some vert moves. I was in a Yak just messing around with another guy in a G10. Guns cold aerial dancing and such. This P38 goes vertical, tries a vert snap roll and promptly sends it into some sort of demented spiral. He ended up hitting the ground, hard. I've checked this offline myself a few times when I'd go vertical on a drone. She dumps the left wing like a 190, then somehow gets into a Yak's tail-down spin. Regardless of flaps, this happens. I'll try getting film of this later today or tonight maybe.


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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb