Author Topic: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe  (Read 2718 times)

Offline 2Slow

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WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« on: July 13, 2009, 02:52:42 PM »
Yesterday, the 12th of July, I engaged in a lengthy text discussion about the actual accuracy of bombing per WWII standards.  I stated that if an Allied air raid got its bombs within 1,500 feet of the aim point it was considered a success.  Some challenged me as being without a clue.  Technically they were correct.  The correct target area was within 1,000 feet of the aim point.

http://www.8thafhs.org/survey.htm

'The U. S. Army Air Forces entered the European war with the firm view that specific industries and services were the most promising targets in the enemy economy, and they believed that if these targets were to be hit accurately, the attacks had to be made in daylight. A word needs to be said on the problem of accuracy in attack. Before the war, the U. S. Army Air Forces had advanced bombing techniques to their highest level of development and had trained a limited number of crews to a high degree of precision in bombing under target range conditions, thus leading to the expressions "pin point" and "pickle barrel" bombing. However, it was not possible to approach such standards of accuracy under battle conditions imposed over Europe. Many limiting factors intervened; target obscuration by clouds, fog, smoke screens and industrial haze; enemy fighter opposition which necessitated defensive bombing formations, thus restricting freedom of maneuver; antiaircraft artillery defenses, demanding minimum time exposure of the attacking force in order to keep losses down; and finally, time limitations imposed on combat crew training after the war began.

It was considered that enemy opposition made formation flying and formation attack a necessary tactical and technical procedure. Bombing patterns resulted -- only a portion of which could fall on small precision targets. The rest spilled over on adjacent plants, or built-up areas, or in open fields. Accuracy ranged from poor to excellent. When visual conditions were favorable and flak defenses were not intense, bombing results were at their best. Unfortunately, the major portion of bombing operations over Germany had to be conducted under weather and battle conditions that restricted bombing technique, and accuracy suffered accordingly. Conventionally the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was reached for the month of February 1945. These are important facts for the reader to keep in mind, especially when considering the tonnages of bombs delivered by the air forces. Of necessity a far larger tonnage was carried than hit German installations."

For game play there are some targets which require "precision" attacks.  There are other targets (factories, cities, and towns) which lend themselves effective carpet bombings.

This matter came up because ENY was preventing one from launching a B-17.  It was stated that JU-88's carried more tonnage than a B-17.  I agreed that this may be so but I wanted more ordance for carpet bombing.  My mission goal on "soft" targets is one pass, one salvo, RTB.  As my signature says, "Secundum mihi , urbanus resurrectio" After me, urban renewal.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2009, 03:17:56 PM »
I have found that Ki-67s are ~75% as effective as B-17Gs in AH when it comes to carpet bombing.  The eight 100kg bomb loadout does quite well against cities.
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Offline 2Slow

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2009, 05:49:59 PM »
I have found that Ki-67s are ~75% as effective as B-17Gs in AH when it comes to carpet bombing.  The eight 100kg bomb loadout does quite well against cities.

I am tempted to say it is 50% as effective.  At least in regards to its load of 8 220 lbs bombs verses the B-17 load of 16 250 lbs.  However, against the right neighborhood, a good bomb run line, and the proper delay salvo then some nice results may be achieved.  Nice thing about carpet bombing is that close counts and you don't sweat the few structures that may survive.  The survivors are for resolution by the tactical clean up crew.

I do know I prefer the '17's robust airframe and defensive armaments.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2009, 06:12:51 PM »
Well, when the B-17s are ENYed out, the Ki-67 does good yeoman work.  Fast, decent guns.
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Offline 2Slow

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2009, 06:17:29 PM »
Well, when the B-17s are ENYed out, the Ki-67 does good yeoman work.  Fast, decent guns.

Good point.  I shall keep the Ki-67 in mind.  My thoughts on ENY...well I just won't go there  :)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2009, 06:34:17 PM by 2Slow »
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Offline Strip

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2009, 06:29:51 PM »
Shhhhhh.......

Dont let the secret out on the Ju-88s!

You can level the fighter hangars and VH on a small field airfield.

Or you can level a medium field fighter hangars.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2009, 06:46:23 PM »
I think there have always been unrealistic expectations with strategic bombing. Your not going to get Congress to fund a huge armada of Heavy Bombers by telling them they will only be capable of putting 20% of bombs within 1,000' of targets. What you do is take up a bunch of them, under perfect conditions with nobody shooting at them, and using your top guys drop bombs on a practice target. Thats how Generals get expensive Bombers to play God with.

The The 8th Air Force found a far different reality operating in Europe and the Med. . Not only was the Luftwaffe a skilled and fearsome enemy but they put up a lot of their best talent against the bomber streams. The ack was terrible over targets and I often wonder how we hit anything at all.

How successful was it? I have a higher opinion of it then many. The Germans had to spend vast resources to defend against the day and night Allied onslaught and I just read reports on how the GO-335 production was severely interrupted due to strategic bombing. And there are many reports of interruptions in Industry that caused bottlenecks in Industrial output.

If you read up on the operations of the *'th you'll no doubt see a lot of different targets, and target types, that left the Generals seething. They didn't care about V-weapons cause they knew they would have zero effect on the outcome of the war. But still, due to political considerations, they had to target these sights with their heavy bombers time and again. Same goes for the Pre-Normandy operations. All thru the war they just had to many different types of targets to hit and that limited their effectiveness even more the bombing accuracy did. And even with the vast numbers of Allied bombers German industry continued to reach remarkable output quotas.

Interesting reading on 8'th operations for you, in chronology.http://www.8thafhs.org/combat1942.htm 1942 to 1945.

In the game Bombing operations can be very effective if they are organized with several heavy groups working together, and with escorts. I always considered them a ton of fun.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 07:52:32 PM »
I have before and after photos in one of my Mossie books of the results of a ~200 Lancaster raid on a French rail yard that was done in the leadup to D-Day.  Pathfinder Mossie's marked each corner of the target and then the Lancasters pounded it.  It wasn't back in operation until 1947 or so.
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Offline Slate

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 09:37:15 AM »
 Nothing Beats the Lancaster in Bomb Load but Defensively it is a sitting duck to a good Pilot. Though I have killed many who attacked from my Six.  :aok

I always wanted to fight an impossible battle against incredible odds.

Offline Wreked

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 09:44:01 AM »
Interesting stuff 2slow - info I was given by a buffer once was that the usual bonbing altitude for B24's was 18-22K depending on cloud cover. Any info on the 17's preferred alt??

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 04:03:41 PM »
I have before and after photos in one of my Mossie books of the results of a ~200 Lancaster raid on a French rail yard that was done in the leadup to D-Day.  Pathfinder Mossie's marked each corner of the target and then the Lancasters pounded it.  It wasn't back in operation until 1947 or so.

Actually using Mossie pathfinders for the heavies, and sometimes directional beacon equipment, the Brits often bombed more accurately at night then we did during the day. Back then If I had a target that absolutely had to be taken out I probably would have picked an experienced Brit crew. And bloody ruthless too. They paid the Hun back in spades wot?

They were the first ones to really shake the German leadership When they pounded Hamburg in 1943 during Operation Gomorrah. Now there is a text book case of using heavies to punish the enemy. It was also, I believe, the first time foil strips "Window" was used as a defensive tactic.

Remember Hamburg was Germany's 2nd largest city. One the German leadership was fond of, in fact the entire Reich was fond of the place. Not only was it culturally important to them it was also a city with a heavy defense industry component. It was a huge warship building epicenter. Both of surface ships and U-boats. It also contained large war production factories and was a big transportation center.

The Mossies lit the way that 25'th of July and the Heavy RAF bombers just pounded the city proper. The Luftwaffe was overwhelmed by both the numbers of attackers and the defensive window. We Yanks then attacked later in daylight tho I dont remember what our success was with the target bombing of Hamburgs Industry and Boat yards. The Brits had very light losses for such a large attack at night.

It was the Brits who really shook up Hitler and his crew. The destruction of Hamburg was only a beginning and they got so good at night bombing they often dropped with better accuracy then our daylight raids did.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 04:30:59 PM »
Well, keep in mind that when pathfinders marked the target, the fact that RAF heavies were not locked into formation allowed each bomber's bomb aimer to take control and try to hit the target, much like the USAAF bombers did in demonstration before the war.

At the start of the war RAF Bomber Command's accuracy was so bad that something like 50% of the bombs dropped were within 10-20 miles of the target.  It got much, much better once they developed new tactics and technology.
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Offline Wreked

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Re: WWII Allied bombing accuracy, Europe
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 05:12:17 PM »
Karnaks absolutely right about the Brits night runs - the Lancs actually took off singlely and flew by themselves there and back. They had worked out a series of electronic "beams" that they rode - even to the point of dropping on target based on the beam ( used pathfinders too). It did get crowded over the target and collision was indeed a worry - but more so the LW night fighters were a greater worry for them - given the sparse # of night fighters they took there toll.

Interestingly the JU88 bomber was re-fitted and became one of the mainstay night fighters.

cheers eye!
HO is a HO is a HO!!
You can lead a donkey to a FACT - you just can't make them think!

cheers eh!!