Author Topic: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls  (Read 2546 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2009, 01:29:25 PM »
Ooh... ooh... I know.  Can I play?   :D
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2009, 01:33:33 PM »
Junky - Yep. It's a small amount of airbraking and, in the situation I'm talking about (tiny margin of error, but only 1 solid hit required - easy at low speed & point blank), every bit counts. And it can easily be made to end with wings nearly level which is a great position at that point, because you're most likely flying very slow and need all the lift you can get, to set up for the snapshot that's coming up.  It also works as a distraction that (in my experience) usually numbs the other guy's reactions.. They keep a good look at you to figure out why you're snaprolling like that, and tend to loosen up their reflexes.



Prof - In a 1D freedom situation, it's the ailerons working in accord to spin the plane around the longitudinal axis.  If the ailerons are instantly moved back to neutral, the rolling stops.  To test the balance of these two rolling moments we'd have to move the ailerons independently, and compare the effect of each one.  But we can't and the 1D freedom situation forbids anything else that I can think of, so I'm stumped at this point.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2009, 01:36:28 PM »
Ooh... ooh... I know.  Can I play?   :D

It's an open discussion :).  Jump on in, the water is fine!

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2009, 06:26:18 PM »
Roll rate reaches a steady state when the forces of the ailerons acting on air can no longer accelerate the roll against the forces of air acting on the wings, tail surfaces and, to a lesser degree, the fuselage itself.
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Offline moot

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2009, 06:43:16 PM »
< concurs..  When the force of airflow against the ailerons is equal to the sum of forces resisting it.  I guess you meant those two when you said two rolling moments.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2009, 07:09:02 PM »
Brilliant guys ;).  Yes that's exactly what I meant about rolling moments moot.  OK doing good so far.  So to my original question regarding the rolling moments in a steady roll, they are equal each other and therefore total sum is zero, implying another force at work opposite rolling aileron force.  Of course the ailerons first create a force and acceleration into a roll but then there is another force that eventually cancels the rolling acceleration induced by aileron deflection out.

So what could be the main contributor that produces this opposing force in a roll that damps out aileron roll acceleration and also stops a roll when we neutralize aileron?

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Offline moot

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2009, 08:23:29 PM »
The flow of air against the airframe whose surface is almost entirely aligned with it?  Ignoring the natural lifting bias that allows a plane to neither climb nor sink in gravity.

If you've got an arm with a flat surface exposed to a strong flow of air at one end, the surface parallel to that flow of air.. and the other end of the arm attached to a freely rotating axis so that that's the only degree of freedom..

Then you'd have the arm staying put in one position (provided the surface is perfectly regular or symetrical so that both faces receive an equal push from the airflow), and with a required force to make it rotate any given amount growing directly proportional to the airflow.  This represents a wing without an aileron, and the force that opposes and limits ailerons' rolling moment.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 08:43:15 PM by moot »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2009, 10:40:38 PM »
Hmmm, we need to step back just a step.  When we talk about aircraft degrees of freedom we usually mean that to be degrees of freedom with respect to the airplane center of gravity.  There are 6 degrees of freedom we have to deal with, but typically we usually talk about 3 of the 6 portrayed below longitudinal, directional, lateral respectively:



To keep the analysis of roll simple we limit the analysis to a single degree of freedom in the stability axes (longitudinal, directional, lateral) and assume the airplane doesn't pitch or yaw but only allowed to roll along the longitudinal axis (while moving forward).  The reason we do this is because pitch and yaw introduce a lot more complexity in analyzing roll.  So this is what I mean by fixing it to a single degree of freedom.  If we do so we get an idealized roll depicted like the following:



Another way to look at is like this..



Notice on this image I've included the airflow arrows.  So let's go back to your guess at what is damping force against a roll - "The flow of air against the airframe whose surface is almost entirely aligned with it?".  Let's assume that airflow against the airframe creates a roll damping force that opposes and stops roll acceleration caused by aileron input.  Assuming the airplane is traveling at a constant velocity forward how could the airframe generate an opposing force against roll if the forward velocity is constant?  To save us going down a rabbit hole the answer is that it can't.

So we're still left with our question: what causes the damping force that can cancel out the rolling moment from aileron input?  I'll offer up a couple of hints.  It has to do with the roll stability function of the wing.  It also has to do with the rotational velocity experienced by the wing too.

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« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 10:42:28 PM by dtango »
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2009, 11:04:28 PM »
I'll take a stab at it:  Disruption of airfow.  In your example the left wing is going down so not only is the bottom of the wing pushing air, that very act is disrupting air over the top of the wing precisely where the aileron needs air to sustain roll.  Of course the exact opposite is happening to the other wing (the top is pushing air and disrupting airflow over the bottom of the wing) but with the exact same result.

Not only that but if there were no forward momentum (i.e. introduction of clean air) there would be a partial vacume acting on the wing surface away from the roll which would try to "suck" the wing back creating the natural shock absorber effect you alluded to.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2009, 11:24:06 PM »
Here's a hint towards one factor...



The Corsair is an excellent example of it...
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2009, 12:10:43 AM »
Downward moving wing is at higher AOA than the upward moving wing.  The higher AOA produces more lift which counters the roll.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2009, 01:00:37 AM »
I'll take a stab at it:  Disruption of airfow.  In your example the left wing is going down so not only is the bottom of the wing pushing air, that very act is disrupting air over the top of the wing precisely where the aileron needs air to sustain roll.  Of course the exact opposite is happening to the other wing (the top is pushing air and disrupting airflow over the bottom of the wing) but with the exact same result.

Not only that but if there were no forward momentum (i.e. introduction of clean air) there would be a partial vacume acting on the wing surface away from the roll which would try to "suck" the wing back creating the natural shock absorber effect you alluded to.

Paragraph #1 close, but no cigar.  Paragraph #2,...not so much :).

The right answer is...
Downward moving wing is at higher AOA than the upward moving wing.  The higher AOA produces more lift which counters the roll.

I'm plum out of time to type so I'll cut to the chase some time tomorrow to provide a fuller explanation!

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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2009, 11:23:05 AM »
Let’s revisit some fundamentals of what is happening in an aileron roll.  First how do ailerons cause an airplane to roll about it’s longitudinal axis?  Ailerons are nothing more than plain flaps along a local section of a wing.  Just like a flap when deflected they change the lift slope curve.



As the above diagram shows, the lift curve and range of lift coefficient increases with flap deflection.  With one aileron deflected down and the other deflected up in coordination these aileron deflections create changes in the lift curve slopes of the wings.  The net effect is to create an imbalance between the lift produced by left and right wings.  This imbalance in lift forces causes the airplane to roll.  If we could see the net lift distribution due to aileron deflection across the span of the wings it would look something like this:



Notice how the greater lift distribution on the right compared to the lower lift distribution on the left results in the airplane rolling left.  This is the rolling moment created by aileron deflection.

Of course we’ve by now also concluded in our above observations that there is another rolling moment that is produced which acts in the opposite direction of aileron rolling moment.  This force is known as the roll damping moment.  Conventional airplanes are designed to be laterally statically stable which means there is a roll damping force that naturally brings rolling moments back into equilibrium.

So what’s the main source of this roll damping moment?  Just like the lift distribution differences of the wings cause a roll, the wing is also the main contributor in providing roll damping force.  Colmbo pointed out that this occurs due to differences in angle of attack between up-going and down-going wings.  What’s going on here?

Relative airflow with respect to a wing is not only a function of wing’s angle of attack to forward velocity but also a function of it’s rotational velocity as well.  That means angle of attack of oncoming airflow to a wing is also affected by how fast an airplane is rolling as well.



As the above diagram demonstrates as an airplane rolls the down-going wing’s attack of attack actually increases while the up-going wing’s angle of attack decreases.  The faster an airplane rolls, the greater the magnitude of these changes in angle of attack.  We know that lift is also a function of angle of attack.  This means that the faster an airplane rolls, the down-going wing produces more and more lift.  The opposite is true for the up-going wing.  The faster we roll the less lift the up-going wing produces.  At some rotational velocity this change in lift between the down-going and up-going wing produces an imbalance in lift forces that equals the imbalance created by aileron deflection.

Simply put, roll damping moment increases the faster an airplane rolls until at some point it equals the opposite rolling aileron moment.

When ailerons are brought back to neutral, the airplane continues to roll.  Because of the roll the down-going wing continues to produce more lift than the up-going wing (roll damping) which now causes the roll to decelerate to the point it stops when there is no longer any rolling velocity to create an imbalance in lift distribution between the wings.  You can see this is in the following roll time history diagram.  As aileron input is brought to neutral, it's the roll damping moment that causes the roll to quickly subside.



So the wings are key to both the aileron rolling moment and the opposite wing roll damping moment.  This is a key concept.

All the above discussion is a based on the idea that neither left or right wings are stalled.  What happens if the down-going wing stalls but not the other during a roll?  As we’ve seen roll damping moment to counter-act aileron rolling moment is a function of the lift of the down-going wing.  If the down-going wing is stalled then it produces less lift resulting in lower roll damping.  The deeper the stall the less the roll damping produced.  The lift curve slope of a stalled wing has a steep downward slope which means roll damping moment falls off rapidly at stall.  The effect is that there isn’t much force to counteract the rolling acceleration due to ailerons which means the airplane rolls around much faster.  This is what’s happening in a snap roll.

So there you have it moot.  The reason your third roll was so much faster is because the down-going wing was stalled and there was little roll damping moment to counteract aileron rolling moment :rock.

Now my fingers are worn out so I have to go give them a break!

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« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 11:28:42 AM by dtango »
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Offline dtango

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2009, 11:33:19 AM »
Oh one last thing.  It was the Col. Mustard in the parlor with candlestick holder!  :D

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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Aerodynamics question - aileron rolls
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2009, 11:46:18 AM »
You know WAY too much.   :O
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