Author Topic: Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?  (Read 626 times)

Offline Dune

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I have seen a lot of misconceptions about the air war in Europe being thrown about during the last few days.  I myself have had a few.  Fortunately, I was recently given a book which has helped clarify the picture; TARGET BERLIN by Jeff Ethel and Alford Price.

Want to know what the numbers were and the units involved?  Want to know how many planes from each side were engaged at one area at one time?  If so, read on.  

However, if you prefer just saying, “Side A had X number of planes and Side B had 4X number of planes so that’s why Side B won.” and being wrong, that’s fine too.

So here goes (see if I can condense a whole book into one post     )

On Monday 6 Mar 44 the 8th AF sent over 1600 planes to Berlin.

On Monday 6 Mar 44 the 8th AF sent over 1500 planes to Berlin.

The Combatants

At this time, the 8th AF had availible 777 B-17’s (1st & 3rd Bomb Divisions), 305 B-24’s (2nd Bomb Division), 415 P-47’s (56th, 78th, 352nd, 353rd, 355th, 356th, 359th, and 361st FG’s), 130 P-38’s (20th, 55th, and 364th FG’s) and 109 P-51’s (4th, 354th, and 357th).  The order of battle and attack for the 8th was this:

1st Bomb Division – Target VKF Ball Bearing Works, Erkner

1st Combat Wing
- 59 B-17’s of the 91st and 383rd BG’s
94th Combat Wing
- 57 B-17’s of the 351st, 401st and 457th BG’s
41st Combat Wing
- 54 B-17’s of the 303rd BG, 379th BG and 384th BG’s
40th Combat Wing
- 54 B-17’s of the 92nd and 306th BG’
Composite 40th–41st Combat Wings
- 35 B-17’s of the 305th BG

1st BD Escorts (Numbers and RV points)

Penetration
51 P-47’s of the 359th FG – RV near Dutch Coast
45 P-47’s of the 358th FG – RV near Dutch Coast
32 P-47’s of the 56th FG – RV near Lingen
36 P-47’s of the 78th FG – RV near Dummer Lake

Target
25 P-51’s of the 4th FG – RV northeast of Brunswick
31 P-38’s of the 55th FG – Never made RV

Withdrawal
32 P-47’s of the 355th FG – RV northwest of Hannover
37 P-47’s of the 361st FG – RV near German border
8 P-51’s of the 361st FG – RV near German border

3rd Bomb Division – Target Robert Bosch Electrical Works, Klein Machnow

4th Combat Wing (A & B Formations)
- 73 B-17’s of the 94th, 385th and 447th BG’s
13th Combat Wing (A & B Formations)
- 80 B-17’s of the 95th,  100th and 390th BG’s
45th Combat Wing (A & B Formations)
- 81 B-17’s of the 96th, 388th and 452nd BG’s

Escorts for the 3rd BD

Penetration
16 P-47’s of the 365th FG (9th AF) – RV near Dutch coast
31 P-47’s of the 353rd FG – RV near Dummer Lake

Target
34 P-51’s of the 354th FG (9th AF on loan to the 8th) – RV near Magdeburg
23 P-38’s of the 20th FG – RV northwest of Berlin

Withdrawal
32 P-47’s of the 78th FG – Failed to make RV
47 P-47’s of the 352nd FG – RV near Dummer Lake

2nd Bomb Division – Target Daimler Benz Aero Engine Works, Genshagen

2nd Combat Wing
- 63 B-24’s of the 389th, 445th and 453rd BG’s
Composite 14th-96th Combat Wing
- 64 B-24’s of the 44th, 392nd and 458th BG’s
20th Combat Wing
- 76 B-24’s of the 93rd, 446th, and 448th BG’s

Escorts for the 2nd BD

Penetration
50 P-47’s of the 362nd FG (9th AF) – RV over Zuider Zee
34 P-47’s of the 56th FG – RV near Meppel

Target
33 P-51’s of the 357th FG – RV northeast of Madgeburg

Withdrawal
32 P-38’s of the 364th FG – RV northwest of Berlin (I believe this was my grandfather’s first trip to Berlin)
42 P-38’s of the 356th FG – RV northwest of Hannover

General Withdrawel Support
44 P-47’s of the 359th FG – RV near Dummer Lake (2nd flight of day)
49 P-47’s of the 358th FG (9th AF) – RV east of Zuider Zee (2nd flight of day)
42 P-47’s of the 362nd FG (9th AF) – RV over Zuider Zee (2nd flight of day)
26 Mustang II’s of Nos 19, 65 and 122 RAF – RV north of Hannover

Total Strengh of Striking Force
- 702 B-17’s and B-24’s
- 832 P-38’s, 47’s and 51’s

Opposing them were:

Luftlotte 1
JG 3 - Stab, I, II, & IV Gruppes (58 Me 109’s)
JG 301 – III Gruppe (21 Me 109’s)
JG 302 - Stab, I, & II Gruppen, Sturmstaffel 1 (17 Me 109’s, 7 Fw 190’s)
ZG 26 – I &  II Gruppen (66 Me 110’s)
NJG 5 - Stab, I, II, III, IV, & V Gruppen,  .10 Staffel (Mixed unit of 12 Me 109’s, 110’s, Ju 88’s, He 129’s)

Luftlotte 2
JG 11 - Stab, I, II, & III Gruppen, .10 & .11 Staffels  (35 Me 109’s, 18 FW 109’s)
JG 54 – III Gruppe (20 Me 109)
NJG 1 - III Gruppe & .10 Staffel (9 Me 110’s)
NJG 3 - Stab, I, II, III, & IV Gruppen (29 Me 110’s, 14 Ju 88’s, 6 Do 217’s)
NJG 7 – I Gruppe (10 Ju 88’s)

Luftlotte 3
JG 1 - Stab, I, II, & III Gruppen (54 FW 190’s)
JG 300 - Stab, I & II Gruppen (12 Me 109’s, FW 190’s)
NJG 1 - Stab, I, II, & IV Gruppen (15 Me 110’s, 6 Do 217’s, 3 He 219’s)
NJG 2 - Stab, II, & III Gruppen (15 Ju 88’s, 7 Me 110’s)

Luftlotte 4
JG 2 - Stab, II, & III Gruppen (24 Me 109’s, 19 FW 190’s)
JG 26 - Stab, I, II, & III Gruppen (41 FW 190’s, 32 Me 109’s)
NJG 1 – III Gruppe (12 Me 110’s)
NJG 4 - Stab, I & II (12 Me 110’s, 3 Do 217’s, 1 Ju 88)

Luftlotte 7
JG 3 – III Gruppe (20 Me 109’s)
JG 5 – I Gruppe (20 Me 109’s)
JG 27 - I, II, III, & IV Gruppen (105 Me 109’s)
JG 53 – II Gruppe (15 Me 109’s)
JG 300 – III Gruppe (4 Me 109’s)
JG 301 - I & II Gruppen (26 Me 109’s)
ZG 1 – II Gruppe (26 Me 110’s)
ZG 76 - Stab, I, II, & III Gruppen (40 Me 110’s)
NJG 6 –I & II Gruppen (28 Me 110’s)
- Note: This list does not include Industrial Fighter units, Trials Detachments, Training units or Air Observation units.

This totaled for the LW 555 single-engined day fighters (Me 109’s and FW 190’s), 92 twin-engined day fighters (Me 110’s and Me 410’s), 88 single-engined night fighters (109’s and 190’s) and 260 twin-engined night fighters (110’s, Ju 88’s, Do 217’s and HS 219’s).

On 6 Mar 44, the LW sortied 200 FW 190’s, 236 Me 109’s, 75 Me 110’s, 9 Me 410’s, and 1 Ju 88.  (Note – These numbers include second sorties)

The Battles

The battle would take far too long for me to post.  So I’ll just post one of the highlights:

- On the way in, the lead plane of the 13th Combat Wing/3rd Bomb Division got off path.  This created a horizontal separation between the back and front halves of the bomber stream. It was met by 2nd Luftlotte and 39 Me 109’s and 68 FW 190’s of Stab and I, II, III/JG 11, III/JG 54, and I, II/JG 1.  To make matters worse, because the 13th CW was supposed to be in the middle, there were only 8 P-47’s of the 56th FG (being lead by Hub Zemke) in any position to meet the Germans.  Most of the 56th was up with the front half of the 2nd BD, the 78th was up with the 1st BD and the 353rd FG was behind with the 2nd BD.  It was a perfect HO attack.  The battle lasted 25 minutes and ran for about 75 miles.  Most of the LW had 2 or 3 passes before more escorts could arrive to help.  20 B-17’s, 3 P-47’s and 19 LW were lost

I’ll add more as I get through the book.  As you can see, it was not pure numbers that decided things.  When Luftlotte 2 wiped out the 13th CW, the escorts were outnumbered 10 to 1.  Plus, look at the places were the escorts meet up with the bombers.  There was only one, maybe 2, FG’s to cover a whole bomb division at a time.  

 
Quote
When fully assembled, the bomber stream for a large attack could be more than 90 miles long.  Because they cruised somewhat faster than the bombers and had to zig-zag to maintain station on them, individual fighter groups could not cover the bombers for much more than 30 minutes at a time before fuel began to run low and they had to break away.  As a result only a small proportion of the available escort fighters would be in position to cover bombers at any one time.  On 6 Mar only rarely would there be more than 150 escorts in position; if these were distributed evenly along the length of the bomber stream there would be an average of only 3 fighters for every 2 miles of airspace.  Such a split force would obviously have been ineffectual and easily overwhelmed by the enemy; so it was usual to position about a third of the fighters near the head of the bomber stream – that part most vulnerable to head-on attack – and distribute the remaining fighter in 8-aircraft units along the length of the stream.  It was inevitable, therefore, that from time to time some of the combat wings would have no fighters covering them.
- Target Berlin, pg. 14

The USAAF lost
50 B-17’s
19 B-24’s
5 P-51’s
4 P-47’s
2 P-38’s

The LW and flak units claimed 108 bombers and 20 fighters as kills.  Roughly 2 to 1 overclaimed.

The LW lost
31 Me 109’s
19 Me 110’s
9 FW 190’s
7 Me 410’s
1 Ju 88
1 Arado 96

The USAAF gunners claimed 97 kills and the escort fighters claimed 82.  Roughly 2.7 to 1 over claimed.

- Once again, 98% of this information comes from the book, TARGET BERLIN by Jeff Ethel and Alford Price.

------------------
Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 03-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dune (edited 03-05-2001).]

Offline Westy

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2001, 08:21:00 PM »
 Just like the cavalry coming over the rise   Dune, thank you very, very much. Besides helping to clarify the facts this is some really good info that I'll be saving.

 I've been reading "On Three Wing and a Prayer" about a group in the early part of the USAAF bombing of targets in Occupied Europe.
 The USAAF was even worse off in early 1943. Bombers with no escorts was the norm. The missions into Occupied Europe had to go with the P47 escort which had a hrrible short range and shortly after they'd hit land they would have to turn back.  In May of 43 they starting have a scant few dozen P-38 escorts, that could escort further but not all the way, go along with the bombers. Still. Not far enough.

 In any event, even with the low escort numbers with thier short range combined with the poor tactic of making the escorts stay in close with the bombers I'm still amazed that they kicked bellybutton when the LW would dare to tangle with them.

 Not that they did not recieve thier fare share of losses or bloody noses. But they gave far, far worse than they recieved from the LW.

 -Westy

-Westy

funked

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2001, 08:31:00 PM »
During the time period of that mission the 2nd TAF was quite busy also.  By neglecting 2nd TAF and RAF Bomber Command you are only showing about 1/2 of the equation for the allies.

Offline Dune

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2001, 08:34:00 PM »
Funked, it wasn't my intention to go into all the Allied air operations that took place on 6 Mar 44.

This is the story of the mission to Berlin.  The 8th, 9th AF and RAF units directly involved in getting to Berlin.  And the LW units directly involved in opposing that mission.

One mission and all the units involved in that one mission.

Nath-BDP

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2001, 08:35:00 PM »
555 operational LW day fighters?? Thats new to me, especially in March of 44.

funked

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2001, 08:45:00 PM »
Every day fighter, night fighter, and Zerstörer unit in Western Europe opposed that mission?  I don't think so.

Offline Dune

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2001, 08:46:00 PM »
Nath, I believe that the numbers you see are more along the lines of reported strength, not the number of planes that would fly.

The JG's reported 555 planes, however if you'll notice, there were only 436 sorties by fighters.  But, the book lists approximately half of these as second sorties.  So, you could say that only 340 or so fighters took off that day.  That, I believe is much closer to most reports.

You'll also notice that only 92 out of the original number of 109 P-51's flew that day.  More telling is that only 702 bombers out of the reported 1082 actually made the mission.  

Offline Dune

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »
There are days I wished I owed a scanner  

I never said all of these planes engaged just that buff stream.  I said they were availible to be called on.  Want to know which a/c were called on to deal with the buffs?

Take-Off Time   #   Type   Unit      Remarks

1. 10:45am   16    190   I/JG 1      Attacked CW 13 over Haseluenne

2. 10:59      24    110   I, II/ZG 76   Attacked buffs over Tangerhuette at 12:42

3. 11:00      15   109   II/JG 11      Provided top cover for #1

4. 11:04      18   190   III/JG 11   As #1

5. 11:05      22   190   Stab, II/JG 1   As #1

6. 11:09      17   109/190 I/JG 1       As #1

7. 11:18      6   190    II/JG 26      Patrolled Reims area.  Never made contact

8. 11:20      5   190   II/JG 26      As #7

9. 11:20      7   190   I/JG 26      As #7

10. 11:21   22   109   II/JG 2      As #7

11. 11:22   20   109    II/JG 54      Attacked CW 13 over Haseluenne

12. 11:25   10   410   II/ZG 26      Attacked buffs over Tangerhuette

13. 11:26   9   410   II/ZG 26      As #12   

14. 11:27   13   190   II/JG 2      Patrolled Reims area.  Never made contact

15. 11:30   1   88   Air Obs    Staf 2   Joined bomber stream over Hannover and tracked it

16. 11:35   23   109   I/JG 3      Provided top cover for attack at Tangerhuette (#2)

17. 11:36   16   109   II/JG 3      Attacked buffs over Tangerhuette      

18. 11:37   16   109   Stab, IV/JG 3   As #17

19. 11:37   7   190   Sturm 1      As #17

20. 11:37   8   109   I/JG 302      As #17   

21. 11:45   5   190   Air Tr Det   Observation a/c.  Joined buffs over Hannover

22. 12:04   9   109   II/NJG 5      Vectored to rear of stream to engage stragglers

23. 12:10   2   110   I/NJG 5      As #22

24. 12:13   3   110   II/NJG 5      Patrolled Reims.  Never made contact   

25. 12:15   5   190   II/JG 26      As #24

26. 12:24   15   109   III/JG 3      Failed to make contact with buff stream

27. 12:24   31   109   II/JG 27       As #26
            III/JG 300
28. 12:25   3   190   Ind Ftr U Ago   Attacked buffs near Tangerhuette

29. 12:35   2   110   “   “      As #28

30. 12:35   1   109   “  “”      Vectored onto rear of stream to engage stragglers

31. 12:42   4   110   III/NJG 5   Shot down B-17 right after take-off – Oblt Greiner

32. 12:45   1   110   IV/NJG 1   Obs. Greiner shot down a B-17 right after t/o

33. 12:55   2   109   Ind Ftr U Erla   Attacked buffs near Tangerhuette

34. 1:00      6   109   I/JG 5      Failed to make contact

35. 1:00      3   190   Air Tr Det   Second sortie by obs a/c; tracked buffs west

36. 1:01      7   190   III/JG 11   Second sorties; prolly failed to make contact w/ buffs

37. 1:05      1   190    Air Tr Det   As #35

38. 1:25      2   110   IV/NJG         

39. 1:30      2   190   

40. 1.35      7   109   II/JG 3      Second sortie; failed to intercept

41. 1:40      10   109   I/JG 300      Went into action against buffs near Lingen

42. 1:40      21   190   II/JG 26      Second sorties, as #41

43. 1:40      17   109   II/JG 2      Second sorties, as #41

44. 1:45      6   190         

45. 1:46      10   190   III/JG 2      Second sorties, as #41

46. 1:48      13   190   I/JG 11      Second sorties, as #41

47. 1:56      13   190   I/JG 26      As #41

48. 1:56      4   109   I/JG 3      May have attempted to intercept RAF PR Spitfire

49. 2:00      1   210   Air Obs Staf 2   Joined buff stream over Hannover, followed west

50. 2:00      5   109   II/JG 11      Second sortie; engaged by escorts near Nienburg

51. 2:00      2   110   IV/NJG 1   Oblt Greiner scores another kill near Uelzen

52. 2:08      2   109   Stab/JG 300   Went into action against buffs near Lingen

53. 2:09      7   109   III/JG 54   Second sortie; as #52

54. 2:20      4   190   II/JG 1      Second sortie; as #52

55. 2:29      4   190   III/JG 11   Second sortie; as #52

56. 2:43      15   110   I, II/ZG 76    Second sortie; failed to intercept

57. 3:05      4   109   I/JG 300      As #56

58. 3:20      3   190   II/JG 1      As #56

Offline Dune

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2001, 10:00:00 PM »
Also thought I'd through this in:

This is how the book describes Hptmn Rolf Hermichen led Lft 2 into the attack.

 
Quote
As the bombers thundered deeper into hostile territory German fighters began assembling over Lake Steinhuder in readiness to meet them.  Under the direction of the controller of the 2nd Fighter Division at Stade, Haputmann Rolf Hermichen led the Stab and I/JG 11 with four Me 109's and 13 FW 190's, down from the north.  As he neared the lake other Gruppen from the same Geschwader joined him: Hauptmann Anton Hackl's III/JG 11 with 18 FW 190's; and major Guenther Specht's II/JG 11 with 15 Me 109's which, ordered to provide top cover, moved into a position 3,000 feet above and up-sun of the others.  Then Hauptmann Rudolf Sinner led his Gruppe, III/JG 54 with 20 Me 109's, into position between Hermichen's and Hackl's Gruppen.  Shortly afterwards the two Gruppen from JG 1 tagged onto the end of the force:  Major Karl Schnoor's 1/JG 1 with 16 FW 190's and Major Heinz Baer's II/JG 1 with 21 more.  The assembled formation of 109 Messerchmitts and Focke-Wulfs was not large by American standards but for many Germany pilots it was by far the largest they had ever been part of.  "We seldom flew operations with more than 20 Messerchmitts," explained Fdwbl Friedrich Ungar, who flew with Sinner's Gruppe.
- Target Berlin, pg. 44, 45

Offline Westy

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2001, 09:24:00 AM »
 Funked and Nath talk total distubritued forces. From just east of Berlin and west to the French coast is all the forces they really should tally.  Dune showed you what commonly happened with using one particular raid as an example. and that was a 1944 raid. All through out 1943 the US escorts were horrendously outnumbered by the LW attacking these groups. Up until early 44 the standard plan was for Spitfire groups to cover the channel, up to 350 P-47's to provide ingress and egrees escot - to just about the German border - where upon the two to three dozen P-38's would continue on. Up against these meger P-38 forces and the bombers would be thrown three, four or five times as many LW fighters.
 Not until larger drop tanks for the P-47 and P-38 came about and the P-51 arrived did the LW start seeing an increase in fighters with the bombers all the way into Germany, Berlin and back.  The USAAF also finally changed tactics and released the escorts to hunt the LW pre-emptively. This was the turning point in the air war and the final chapter for the the LW.  Continuously decimated ranks and losses of the experienced pilots against the better trained, better tactics and better equippent of the USSAF and Allies enabled to the Allies to land virtually unopposed on D-Day and the LW never recovered from the spring of 44. And the Allies continued bringing more men and equipment online to the point where the LW hadn't a hope - except perhaps with the ME-262, but only had that story been different and that belongs to "alt.history.what if".  After the summer of 44 the LW, germany period, had not a prayer. None at all.  (I thank God and all those vets too)

 Also, Funked and Nath for some inexplicable reason didn't mention the RAF bombed at night. There weren't any 100, 200 or 300 Lancaster raids occuring at the same time as these USAAF daylight bomber raids.

 And Funked, I have reports from the Allied pilots on the scene of the LW throwing every type of plane at these bomber groups in huge numbers.  Night fighters, every type of day fighter, Do-17, Ju-88s and other med bombers, Stukas and even the Owl recon airplane which could fire a couple of rockets into the formations.

 Course they may have lied or made all these reports up knowing we'd debate all this 50-plus years in the future so they tried to seed the "Allied conspiracy" back then.  

 -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-06-2001).]

Offline Torgo

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2001, 09:26:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Dune:

The LW and flak units claimed 108 bombers and 20 fighters as kills.  Roughly 2 to 1 overclaimed.

The USAAF gunners claimed 97 kills and the escort fighters claimed 82.  Roughly 2.7 to 1 over claimed.



Considering the high level of verification required of both USAAF and LW fighters, and the ridiculous lack of same for buff gunners (I don't know about LW flak but I'm guessing they overclaimed a lot) f you take out the German flak and the buff gunners I'm sure that gets rid of almost all of the overclaim :-)

USAAF kills were probably 60 fighter kills and 3-4 buff gunner kills or something along those lines.


Offline Dune

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
I looked at my grandfather's FG's history to see what was written about that mission:

 
Quote
MISSION No.5, March 6.  Col. Osborn led the mission flying with the 383rd (FS).  Shipman led the 385th and Capt. Lowell the 384th (my grandfather's).  Bombers were met N.E. of Berlin.  On the way out, 7 Me 109's attacked the bombers near Steinhuder Lake.  Capt. Lowell's flight attacked the enemy.  Lowell shot down the first 109 in flames, then slipped behind the wingman and fired until the enemy went out of control.  Lt. Sam Phillips scored hits on the 3rd plane.  One P-38 was seen going down with a parachute nearby.  Lt Larry Ferguson, 384th, was MIA.
- From, The History of the 364th Fighter Group.

NOTE: After checking maps and Target Berlin, it would seem these 109G's belonged to either III/JG 54 or I/JG 300.  III/JG 54 sortied 7 109's and I/JG 300 sortied 10 109's that went into action against the bombers near Lingen.  

III/JG 54 lost planes that could be the two Lowell shot down near Cloppenburg, Oldenburg, and 6 miles east of Sulingen.  Uffz. E. Mueller was wounded in during this period had force landed near Aumuehle (a little far, but could be the damaged 109 spoken of).  I/JG 300 just lists 2 109's shot down and 2 damaged, no mention of where though.

Although they didn't realize at the time, Lt Ferguson was killed when his parachute didn't deploy correctly.

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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

Offline juzz

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2001, 11:02:00 PM »
Here's parts from the entry for 6th March, 1944 in Heinz Knoke's book I Flew for the Fuhrer He flew as the leader of 5/JG 11(His CO was Specht).

"In the first frontal attack I shoot down a Fortress just north of the airfield and leave a secondone in flames. I cannot watch it crash, however, because I am fully occupied with several Thunderbolts on my tail.
My flight looses Sergeant Veit. The body was found in a cornfield just north of the airfield where he was shot down.
On our second mission I succeed in shooting down yet another Fortress. It also went down during the first frontal attack, aimed at the control cabin. Probably both pilots were killed and the controls put out of action, because the plane crashed without any signs of fire.
During the ensuing dogfight with the Thunderbolts my tail-planewas shot full of holes, and my engine and left wing were badly hit also."

Knoke obtains a new fighter to sortie a 3rd mission, but it is destroyed in a strafing attack.

"No. 4 Flight places one of its aircraft at my disposal by order of the Commanding Officer. Specht and I take off together, with Flight Sergeant Hauptmann and Sergeant Zambelli as our wingmen.
When we attack a formation of Liberators over Luneberg Heath, we are taken by surprise by approximately forty Thunderbolts. In the ensuing dog-fight our two wingmen are both shot down. After a wild chase right down to ground level the Commanding Officer and I finally escape with great difficulty."

"In a telephone conversation with Division during the night, the Commanding Officer requests that the Squadron be withdrawn from operations temporarily. We cannot continue.
The request is refused."

Offline Daff

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Anatomy of an 8th AF Bomber Mission - What Were the Real Numbers?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2001, 08:09:00 AM »
From "Beware of the Thunderbolt", operational records of the 56th FG


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March 6: VIII FC FO 262: The weather had cleared and this was the big day that everyone had waited for. All three bomb divisions went to Berlin and its suburbs. Helping them along were eight VIII Fighter Command P-47 groups, along with three from IX FC. A total of 615 Thunderbolts, and they aquitted themselves rather well, claiming 36-7-12 ( kills-probables-damaged ), with the 56th FG claiming 10-2-4 for the loss of one pilot and one wounded.
"A" Group (61st FG) followed Col. Zemke off Halesworth at 1013. Three pilots had to abort the momentous mission, and one had to escort them, leaving thirty-one to make the trip. ( 31 being the whole FG, not just "A" Group)
Landfall-in was between Ijmuiden and Egmond at 1100, where the bombers were seen, but the actual RV was not made until over Lingen 25 minutes with the 1st Bomb Division. North of Drummer Lake the 61st Fighter Group spotted the Luftwaffe first, approximatly one hundred single engine fighters that were coming in on the B-17s from 8:00 o'clock.
Zemke turned "A" Group around to meet them and combat ranged between 25,000 and 5,000 feet. Zemke spotted an Fw 190 raking a B-17 with gun and cannon fire, and was able to shoot it down. He then got on a Me 109 and sent it spinning down on fire. This was followed by a joint effort rgar Zemke shared with Lt's Charles Reed, Donald Peters and Marvin Becker, 63rd FS. Thet spotted an Me 109 and bore down on it to see it catch fire for no ascertainable reason. ( This was later solved (another story) and I believe the claims later was withdrawn)). They all watched it become almost totally consumed before it crashed (All four pilots got .25 credit, and this rand Zemke's total score to 9.25 kills). Lt. George Hall, Red One, 63rd FS, spotted an Fw 190 attacking a B-17 that had to pull out of formation to let its crew bailout. Hall spotted five chutes blossom before downing the Focke-Wulf. Lt.'s Joe Icard and Jack Greene, 62nd FS, Red Flight, spotted a pair of Fw 190s while the 63rd FS was busy, and Icard destroyed one while Greene damaged the other.
Major Stewart, leading the 61st FS ( Squadron CO) became an ace and a half, destroying two Fw 190s and bringing is total to 7.5. Lt. Robert S. Johnson got his seventeenth kill, another Fw 190 and damaged another. He was in an angry mode and would have gone after others if he had been given the chance, as he witnessed several instances were the "Jerry" pilots were firing at Allied airmen in their parachutes. ( A bit vague in my memory here, but I believe he saw one, not several instances ).
The 61st FS lost Lt. Andrew Strauss in the confusion of combat, and he was later determind to have been killed.
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Daff