Author Topic: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.  (Read 5669 times)

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Hiya Pyro!

At first I would just like to say that you've done an awesome job on the Brewster's flight model. The lively ailerons, low control forces on higher speeds and all around great maneuverability, they are all there! There's just one aspect of the Brewster flight model that I've been wondering. That is the somewhat marginal (feels almost neutral at times) directional stability of the Brewster's current flight model. The first clue that doesn't nessasarily always point to only marginally positive directional stability of an aircraft is the excessive amount of left rudder needed the keep the aircraft coordinated in turns to both directions. On Brewster's case it seems like this is pretty much a direct symptom of only marginally positive directional stability.

Here's a quote regarding Brewster Model 239's directional stability from a finnish book Lentajan Nakokulma II (Pilot's View Point II) translated by Camo. The book is written by Mr.Jukka Raunio who's an aeronautical engineer (Dipl.Ins.) with a long career in Finnish aviation industry. The book covers origins, development, purchase to Finland, structures, systems and flying/handling qualities of all (non war booty) fighter aircraft of the Finnish Air Force that served during WWII. (Pyro has probabaly heard about the book more than he wants to but I just wanted to introduce it to rest of the readers. :))

"Directional stability was positive. When the plane was disturbed from level flight with the rudder, it returned to direct flight after a couple of sharp yaw and roll motions. The feel of the rudder was a bit poor in slow flight, but got better at speeds over 150 km/h. In a dive, at speeds over 500 km/h, the rudder was very sensitive. V-angle stability was especially good, due to the mid wing and 5.5 degree V-angle. Clean banked turns could be made with just the rudder or just the ailerons. In a straight side slip (clean, engine on idle) at 150 km/h the rudder was fully pressed and counter elevator was given, approximately half of the stick limit. The bank angle was approximately 15 degrees. Correspondingly, during landing the bank angle (Ville: roll or pitch??) was approximately 10 degrees."

AFAIK, the quote is based on Finnish flight testing which was done to determine the handling characteristics of the then new fighter.

If coordinated ("clean") turns could be done without touching the rudder, that is quite a big discrepancy when comparing it to the amout of left rudder needed in AH.

The other problem (they are probably related to each other) in addition to the rather big amout of slipping is the tendency for the plane to simply "depart on the yaw axis" with AoA of the fuselage nearing 90 degrees to the direction of the speed vector at low speeds. It *seems* as if the CoG is too far behind and "the tail simply wants to overtake the nose of the aircraft". I do realize that that was rather poor describtion but that's the way it feels to me. Wheather too far aft CoG is actually the reason to the phonemenon, I do not know. The only aircraft in AH that I've experienced to have similar characteristics in similar, though even bigger, magnitude is the Ta152H-1. On the other hand, FW190A-5/8 is maybe the closest AH-fighter that fits to this describtion: "Clean banked turns could be made with just the rudder or just the ailerons."

Sorry if I posted this a bit late for the possible correction to make into any of the possibly upcoming patches. The reason for this is that I wanted to testfly the plane properly and not make hasty conclusions based on limited initial experience. I do understand that ironing out the kinks of the graphic side of the new version is the primary concern for you right now but I hope you could look into this when you have the time.

P.S. I'll post couple of films of the "departing on the yaw axis"-phenomenon a bit later.
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 08:19:37 PM »
Pyro,

Sorry it took so long for me to get off my butt and make use of my ISP's webpage. :( Anyway, here's couple of films which show the complete loss of directional stability quite well:

Just a short clip from a landing: Film1. As I noticed the condition was developing I didn't correct it with rudder and only corrected with ailerons and let it happen.

A couple minute long 1 vs 1 with Dicto: Film2. Notice the trouble both of us have on several occations on controlling the yaw.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 08:35:18 PM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2009, 01:32:21 PM »
Pyro,

In the Brewster references sent to you you should have Report No.B.A.1689. (July, 1941), Handling tests on Buffalo (Brewster A.S.430) (RAE-Brewster.pdf). On page 6 there's the following mention:

"Banked turns with one control fixed: Excellent turns with very little sideslip can be done on ailerons alone. Sudden application of the ailerons increases the rate of entry and also the sideslip on going into a turn and during the recovery. More use of control is always needed to recover than enter."

This probably the source which Mr.Raunio  used for his book.
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Ex-jazz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 482
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2009, 01:57:00 PM »

Thank you, Wmaker, for your extend write up.

I also notes the same lateral instability issues in Brewster. The Slip/Skid-Ball is swinging allover.

I just can't get a consistent 'feeling', how much I should add a feet-in different situations during the combat maneuvering.


Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2010, 04:12:50 PM »
Pyro,

Something that just dawned to me after flying the rotary engined WWI fighters in AH...

Some of the handling quirks I seem to experience while flying the Brewster are very similar to the handling peculiarities of these WWI fighters. One of the effects which is clearly seen in all these planes is the quite large amount of side slip while pitching up or down from level flight. The amplitude of this effect is shorter and the frequency higher in the Brewster compared to the WWI fighters.

Of course, in general, these effects don't have nearly as big effect on the Brewster as they do on the WWI fighters but these effects seem to be partly the cause of the strange departures and other handling peculiarities of the Brewster.

So, could a too large propeller mass for instance be behind these effects which seem to be of gyroscopic nature?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2010, 04:24:17 PM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2010, 05:09:25 PM »
That's a pretty real possibility.

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2010, 05:17:05 PM »
P.S.  I'm deep into another project at the moment already.  I'll take a look at this once I am clear of this.  

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2010, 05:39:31 PM »
P.S.  I'm deep into another project at the moment already.  I'll take a look at this once I am clear of this.  

Totally understood! :salute

Thanks in advance! :)
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2010, 06:49:23 PM »
P.S.  I'm deep into another project at the moment already.  I'll take a look at this once I am clear of this.  

Beaufighter? :)
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2010, 06:58:01 PM »
Sorry, existing plane remodel. :noid  I'm all for a Beaufighter though. 

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2010, 07:51:24 PM »
Sorry, existing plane remodel. :noid  I'm all for a Beaufighter though. 
Mossie?   :P
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline kingcobradude

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 506
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2010, 08:27:32 PM »
Sorry, existing plane remodel. :noid  I'm all for a Beaufighter though. 
beaufighter sounds fun
CO, Druileáil Teagascóir, and Lámh Cathaoirleach Ginearálta of the Irish Air Force

Offline Strip

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3319
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2010, 08:52:40 PM »
I wonder which it will be?

P-40?

A6m?

C-47? (God I hope not)

Mossie?

Sure there is a few I am missing....

Strip

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2010, 10:19:28 PM »
Sorry, existing plane remodel. :noid  I'm all for a Beaufighter though. 

Yes, they are finally going to model the blender in the P-38s.  About time.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: Pyro, about the directional stability of the Brewster in AH.
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2010, 12:04:21 AM »
Sorry, existing plane remodel. :noid  I'm all for a Beaufighter though. 

HTC Spi hax!!!   :noid
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC