Author Topic: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...  (Read 1182 times)

Offline humble

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Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« on: October 17, 2007, 01:17:47 PM »
Originally I put the wrong film up thinking it was my fight with spatula. It was actually the hop before. I was gonna pull it down but took a look since the fight at the end was fun and I wanted to take a peek at it anyway.

After viewing it I decided I'd leave it up since it shows some concepts I feel are important to have some awareness of as you look to grow your understanding and skill set.

I didnt edit it down so its 13 min long or so...I'll walk thru it quickly.

Beginning is my normal flight profile. I normally fly right toward what ever red I see and level in the 12-15k area. The A-20 is really an "E fighter" so less then 8k AGL is somehwat tough sledding. At the same time the A-20 doesnt really need more then that and the extra alt usually hurts me more since it helps the other guy.

Early I've got a friendly locked up in red but a lala higher as well. Seperate from the fact that the a-20 cant get down that quickly diving in to "clear" a friendly (unless its a squaddie) is only going to drag the lala down to him as well and if you blow thru he's now worse off.

By the time the lala moves on I lost the little gaggle below...

One thing on the 190 is noticing that the 1st shot gets an adjustment that sets up the kill. You dont always fire to get a shot...you fire to "force" theother guy to adjust from an "OK" situation to hopefully a worse one. Contrat that to the fight with Spatula where we both try and avoid what we can and just fly thru what we cant avoid. I think this is an offshoot of WW's "smooth is fast" axiom of air combat. Getting the other guy "off smooth" is often half the fight.

At 6:00 or so I fly over/thru a little ruckus. Note I do not "chk 6" or call out on range. This fight is already on, a chk6 or vox call is going to be more distracting then helpful here 95% of the time.

Later as I fly into the little furball you'll notice the same thing. To many times a guy chk6's or vox chks a known bad guy and the friendly is looking around for the "new" threat. However as soon as the lala goes for BB I vox chk him on the new threat...

If we go to about 10:50 the "fight" starts...I'm trying to get low and slow enough to help without giving up the ability to manuever in the semi verts. You'll see the same type of manuevers as up high with spatula....just slower. One thing to note is that I dont "bail" on my high leg when the spit pings me...again "smooth is fast" nothing I can do will avoid the shot he has and yanking the plane around prolongs it and scrubs needed E. I'm trusting the toughness of the A-20 and its weight to "zoom" me up so I can roll over on the spit.

Notice that going down however I am off the gas and get the relative speed almost mirrored. With my SA more or less gone and 1 or 2 other cons I need to hit this shot while I can...

I can hear/feel miami in the lala but have no clue where he is. Notice that I'm converting to a blind climbing "scissors" while I look. I'm flying to my planes strength while I'm looking. I get lucky and catch him under my port wing. Notice that once I see him I keep the climbing scissors going. The momentum of the A-20 keeps it going up at a slow speed and the extra power of the lala actually "forces" him out front. I'm playing to my strength even though the lala is much better in the vertical...

whats important here from my perspective as a former trainer is showing how knowing your planes strengths can give you a default game plan you can fall back on when your in a situation where you dont know the variables. By going to the climbing rolling scissors before I even found the lala I created a climbing rolling scissors fight and manufactured a good shot.

This is another important concept to grasp, you almost always have a chance if you know your ride and exploit its strengths....even if you start at a significant disadvantage vs a good stick. All to often I see guys go to the "flop" the moment someone pings em...

So at 11:55 I just miss a great "one timer"...miami makes a great adjustment and takes the high ground. This is a gray area for me (12:10-20). I never know if I'm better chasing high or not. So I go with my "default" fall back. The A-20 takes a blow very well and it counterpunchs well. If the la-7 goes high and converts to a true E fight I cant ever really convert back to offense.....

So I hang the nose and pop away...I'd rather lose a fight I have a chance to win (even if its a bad one) then fly "smart" and force the lala to do the same. I want a brass knuckles in the phonebooth fight here...

So the lala "takes the bait" and reverses...and hammers my poor a-20...and look at the resulting fight...

Almost Identical to the initial sequence setting up another shot window at 13:15 (which I pooch). Note that the lala doesnt get another hit here, my "default" game plan at work again. Even off the gas the A-20 "zooms" up in a rock solid slow scissor. Everyone views "zoom" as a high speed thing...but the 20,000lb A-20 can keep E going from 170 to 140 for along time...it's really another application of "smooth is fast". The A-20 is on rails and very efficient here....


I give up another shot before the cavalry arrives. Note that I didnt call vulcan off (and greatly appreciate his asking). Since this fight originated off a "scrum" There is no "mano a mano" here in my mind. A couple of guys were on Kappa, a couple of guys were then on Domin and Jaxxo and then a couple of guys were on BB and I....finally miami was on me and then Vulcan (the guy "locked in red at the beginning of the clip) came on in to continue the "circle of life" that is the MA.

Had the fight initiated like the one vs Spatula I'd have waved Vulcan off and let it play out how it would...

Win lose or draw the goal (hopefully) for all is to have a good time and provide (and receive) a quality fight. I'm always amazed at how often people whine about what the other guy is flying etc. The reality is that if you take the time to learn your ride and establish a good default game plan you'll make most fights good ones. After all if an a-20 can give a la-7 a good fight on the deck anything can:aok

Me and Miami
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 01:24:20 PM by humble »

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline goober69

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Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2007, 08:33:54 PM »
wow im um humbled er humble, great flying awesome skills.

hope i can do that kind of thing soon

had to go back and look at the shots you took man great stuff id never hit on those i did turn my tracers off today and i was being a little more sucess ful people were manuvering less and easier to pull lead on i still missed a lot though
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 08:51:18 PM by goober69 »
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline humble

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Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2007, 10:20:54 PM »
Dont view it from the perspective of "great" anything. There is nothing at all uber about anything in that clip. In fact anyone with 90 days in the game can duplicate it 100%...

This game seperates down into managable components....

1) views

Thats the single most important thing to start with. you need to fly "looking out the window" as much as you can. If your looking inside the cockpit your not reacting to whats going on outside.

2) Understanding your ride

Your planes capabilities are finite, the more you grasp about its overall strengths (and weaknesses) the better you'll do...IF you fly to those strengths.

3) BFM

Once you have those 1st two down then how you fly the plane starts to matter. Air combat is basically proactive and reactive BFM strung together. Obviously the more proficient your are at executing manuevers at unusual attitudes the smoother your flying becomes and as WW says "smooth is fast".

4) ACM

ACM is the application of consecutive BFM based on the current tactical situation and the relative strengths of your plane (or the weaknesses of your opponent).

5) Attitude

The fight is largely won or lost in your mind during the formative stages of development. As (if) you progress then experience and improvisation come more and more into play. Focusing just on this clip I dont panic when I 1st get rung up by the lala. Miami doesnt just start flopping when I get a lick in. Fights between experienced pilots have an ebb and flow with the "advantage" changing hands. Now in both clips you see multiple hits on both sides. Occassionally the "golden bb" strikes one side or the other but most of the time two quality sticks who start evenly matched will struggle to gain control ...often aggresive moves lead to counters unless fully converted....as spatula said we were "trading blows"...its not over till you blow up, auger, or run out of something you need (gas, oil, water, bullets ,blood).

You can find a single element in any decent clip that you can internalize and make "yours". Guys like Spatula and I have been folded, spindled and mutilated hundreds of times (or more) to learn the little we know. If its all laid out for you the learning curve is actually not that long (to mediocre that is)...then you join the long line of guys looking to find the "uber grail".

A guy named Brooke (still flies AH I believe) said it best in one of the old Air Warrior training guides. I am above the unwashed masses and below the gods (or something to that effect)

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline goober69

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Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2007, 11:42:14 AM »
ur exactly right man still great stuff i think im just intermediate right now
my first sortie was good last nigth but after id been on a few hours things went sour seemed liek eveyrthing i did my enme did better i would get on one guy and instantly have another on me, and die i had to take a break cause i was getting mad and realized it was just my sa cause i was tierd, kind of like when i play poker and go on TILT,  i was letting the mental thing get in my head and had to quit for the night.


p.s i feel above the ho ack hugging masses but below everyone else lol
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline goober69

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Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2007, 11:44:41 AM »
film veiwer is probably the best tool ah has seen fit to give us i like that i can look at the ohter guys perspective now.
flying as Marvin57
"we few we happy few,
  we band of brothers;"
W.S  Henery V

Offline MiamiAce

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 07:53:47 PM »
This was a fun fight thanks for posting video.  Good memories even though you where schooling me in that A20 was fun having to work you little by little.  Can't wait till we meet again ( after i get some practice just started playing again yesterday, lol ) <<S>>

Offline humble

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 09:15:05 PM »
This was a fun fight thanks for posting video.  Good memories even though you where schooling me in that A20 was fun having to work you little by little.  Can't wait till we meet again ( after i get some practice just started playing again yesterday, lol ) <<S>>

glad to have you back....

If you happen to be flying knight feel free to tune 171 anytime you like. I'm mostly up on weekends but always a few guys (or alot) on channel....

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline AirFlyer

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 12:39:25 AM »
Haha nice fight, reminds me of the one time I ran into Miami in my Zero, gave me a hell of a time in his Spit I(Or Hurr I, can't remember). Thankfully luck saved me though.  :lol

Welcome back Miami. :salute
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Offline MiamiAce

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2009, 09:29:21 PM »
Haven't got to play in while but been getting the urge to kill!  Might try to come on again soon.  Hope the game is still fun.

Offline Big Rat

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2009, 09:47:45 AM »
Well I was looking forward to watching this but my film crashes at  2:28 every time :furious.  Been a long time since I got my A20 into a good tumble with a fighter and was looking forward to watching this :furious.  By the way Snaphook thanks for the A20 work in the TA a few days ago :aok

 :salute
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When you think the fight might be going bad, it already has.
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Offline cobia38

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Re: Using "zoom" in a slow on the deck fight...
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2009, 11:23:47 PM »


This game seperates down into managable components....





2) Understanding your ride

Your planes capabilities are finite, the more you grasp about its overall strengths (and weaknesses) the better you'll do...IF you fly to those strengths


  have to say this is the most important on your list
 once this is mastered then you can fly it on the edge and if you are creative, you can do things that will make some people yell B/S
 

 


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time