Author Topic: Question on WEP devices.  (Read 954 times)

Offline wells

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Question on WEP devices.
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2001, 08:05:00 PM »
Quote
So when DB605 gaved 1800hp@2800rpm:
                                        1800hp*9551/2800rpm=6140Nm. (<-Can it be that high???)

There's a problem with your conversion factor there.  It should be 7124, not 9551, giving a torque of 4580 Nm

Offline Zigrat

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Question on WEP devices.
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2001, 09:21:00 PM »
fyi i think engine modeling is extremely shady in aces high... effects of rpm and manifold pressure on fuel consuumption are kinda funny.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2001, 10:57:00 PM »
Zig I think HT might have improved it.  I just did sea level tests on the P-51D and compared with the manual.  GPH, TAS, and MPG are coming within 5-10% of the manual figures for different MP/RPM combos.

I'm working on P-51B now.  I'll retest Fw 190, which was the one that had real bad agreement with the manual.

[ 12-04-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline Staga

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Question on WEP devices.
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2001, 02:04:00 AM »
Thanks Wells!

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2001, 02:20:00 AM »
Okaaay... i'm still confused.

 Sooo, this means there are two options, a) MW-50 injection, and b) GM-1 Nitro Oxide Boost... and of those two our G-10 is equipped with MW50... but in real life, there were versions with GM-1 installed???

  :)

Offline Jochen

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Question on WEP devices.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2001, 03:12:00 AM »
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Sooo, this means there are two options, a) MW-50 injection, and b) GM-1 Nitro Oxide Boost... and of those two our G-10 is equipped with MW50... but in real life, there were versions with GM-1 installed???

I don't think any G-10's used GM-1, atleast I haven't heard about it.

Bf 109F-4/Z series had GM-1 and, something like 500 (not sure) was built. I think GM-1 was also used by early G models which were used as recon or specialized high altitude fighters.
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline R4M

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Question on WEP devices.
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2001, 03:35:00 AM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa:
Okaaay... i'm still confused.

 Sooo, this means there are two options, a) MW-50 injection, and b) GM-1 Nitro Oxide Boost... and of those two our G-10 is equipped with MW50... but in real life, there were versions with GM-1 installed???

    :)


You got it right. I'm not sure wether the G10s in real life were fitted with it but for sure they could receive it. What I do know is that lots of 109Gs received  the GM1 injection, and seems that some K4s too (I have some messerschmitt factory charts showing performance of 109K4 with GM1)

Jochen, quite some 109G6s used GM-1 too.

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2001, 01:22:00 PM »
now what am Interested in is Flakbait's comment about the Ta152 being 25 slower at 26k. Can you elaborate further please?

Offline butch2k

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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
In fact GM-1 was never installed on non-pressurized aircraft equiped with either the DB 605AS or DB 605DB. The reason being quite simple, at the altitudes those aircraft were able to operate the GM-1 boost was almost of no use since those engine were more efficient at altitude than the original DB 605A.
There were indeed some test of modified aircraft (pressurized) with both DB 605D and GM-1, but they were only testbeds.
So front line G-10 and K-4 were never fitted with the system.

R4M could you email me a copy of this chart, i'd like to compare it with the one i hoave on microfilm ?
TIA

Offline R4M

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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2001, 04:07:00 PM »
Butch, charts otw via email.

Hohun:

 
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun:

To be more accurate, the engine was limited in power by its ability to withstand the resulting internal forces. If you're implying that the manifold pressure limit isn't necessarily the same as the maximum manifold pressure attainable from normal supercharger use, we're actually in agreement here.

That is what I meant   :). At lower altitudes, the max manifold you can pull without damaging the engine is less than the manifold pressure you could get from the engine with the air coming from the supercharger. As a rough rule of thumb, under the rated altitude of the supercharger, the max manifold pressure you can use is determined by the point when detonation occurs. Over the rated altitude, the max manifold pressure you can use is determined by the ammount of air the supercharger can put into the engine.

 
Quote

Actually, even above rated altitude, MW50 still had a charge-cooling effect and was historically used to overcome the Jumo 213E-engined Fw 190D's lack of an intercooler.

Did any D-9 use a 213E jumo?...I thought the D-9s used just the Ju213A.
 
 
Quote

You're right for ambient temperature and pressure :-)

However, nitrous oxide was really stored as a liquid in the German aircraft and evaporated only after being sprayed into the supercharger air intake. The German fighters usually had a large 85 L pressure vessel in the aft fuselage for the nitrous oxide. Since it was stored in liquid form, it was necessary to pressurize the nitrous oxide tank employing compressed air to force it out of the tank and into the lines leading to the engine. (The Me 109E-?/Z variants used four smaller steel vessels instead of one larger one.)

This equipment was quite a bit more heavy and bulky than the MW50 equipment: The same fuselage space that accompanied 85 L of nitrous oxide in a pressure vessel would hold 115 L of MW50 in a conventional tank.
(HoHun)


Of course the N2O was loaded as a liquid on board the planes, using bottles where the gas was stored at high pressures. What I meant is that the handling of the GM-1 N2O gas when loading the plane, and the logistic problem it means to transport it and store it in the fields, etc, made it harder to handle than the MW50. Of course ,once airborne it was just the same  :).

It is always easier to handle liquids than gas, that fer sure (even more when any gas escape gets any mechanics nearby laughing their prettythang off, BTW   :D)

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]

Offline flakbait

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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2001, 09:12:00 AM »
Old repost from this thread
 
Quote
Test conditions:
Aircraft took off on drop tank for flight to altitude. Tank released at target alt and waited for aircraft to stop accelerating. In both instances this happened at 425 mph exactly. Times are the amount of time it took the aircraft to accelerate to that point from a speed of 425 mph.

Results for 28,640 ft:
425 mph: hit WEP and started stopwatch
437.5 mph: 1 min 18 sec
446 mph: 4 min 48 sec
450: 6 min 32 sec
Source data indicates top speed should be 15mph faster than this

Results for 29,860 ft:
425 mph: hit WEP and started stopwatch
437.5 mph: 1 min 6 sec
446 mph: 4 min 30 sec
450 mph: 5 min 22 sec
Again, 15mph too slow


Both times the aircraft stopped accelerating at 450 mph exactly. Clock ran until WEP cut out, which happened after 10 min and 7 sec in both trials. Figure of 437.5 mph was attained by watching the distance between the 425 mph marker and the 450 mph marker. When TAS needle reached half-way between those points, speed was 437.5 mph.

Conclusion: aircraft at least 15 mph too slow. Possible acceleration problem.

Climbrate test conditions:
Test started at 500 ft and continued to 4,500 feet.

Mil power (no WEP): 2,100 ft/min
WEP: 3,250 ft/min

Conclusion: 300 hp difference in power generated a 1,150 ft/min difference in climb rate at 10,742 lbs (loaded weight).

This test probably needs to be done again with more things recorded, but Fishu, Verm, and me all discovered that it's too slow at alt.

------------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School
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"I wanted to go back for another 50 missions, but they ruled it out
because I had a case of malaria that kept recurring. So I had to stay
in the States and teach combat flying. I was shot down by a mosquito!"
Frank Hurlbut, P-38 pilot

 

Offline Tac

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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2001, 10:34:00 AM »
*snork*

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Tac ]

Offline niklas

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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »
GM-1 was always loaded as a liquid into the aircraft, but the method changed. Before mid ´41, they used high pressure to get a liquid. The serial installation consisted of 2 bottles, each with 7 liter. The problem was icing in the manifold channel, and it took some knowledge to overcome that problem. But the main problem was the vulnerability when hit. A single shell that penetrated the bottles (though they were made of steel and had 2 walls) made them explode like a grenade. So they changed later to liquid N2O that was cooled down but it wasn´t under pressure (-87,5°C is the boiling temperature). This method had also a better effectivity.

The reasons for GM-1 are: Higher portian of oxygen compared to air, use of disintegration heat (cooling effect), increasing pressure due evaporation in front of the cylinder and better combustion effectivity.

A Ju86R , with 150gramm/sec. GM-1, reached over 14500m (15000 INA). A Ju88 T (reconaissance aircraft) was equipped with BMW 801 D radial engines. While combat power dropped normally without GM-1 from 1600ps to 880Ps in 10000m, GM-1 brought it back to 1430PS (150g/s). Speed increase was 150km/h, from 500km/h to 650km/h. When the pilot (Kneymeyer) came back from the first combat sortie, he reported: "the Spitfires made hopeless pull-ups at my vapor trails"

Test with fighter aircraft were also done. A 109E with DB601Q engine was used first (report 2574, 15.8.41). The performance increase was:

In 9km altitude:
effectivity: 3,6 PS*s/g
cooling effect: -40°C (difference)
manifold pressure: +0.08 ata (difference)

in 13km altitude:
effectivity: 3,9 PS*s/g
cooling effect: -70°C (difference)
manifold pressure: +0.09 ata (difference)

This means, with 100g/s GM-1 what was used later in the 109 and 190, you could reach a performance increase in 13km altitude of 390PS.
Just for comparison the data for GM-1 that was stored under pressure:
effectivity: 2,9 PS*s/g
cooling effect: -18°C (difference)
manifold pressure: +0.07 ata (difference)

So the liquid GM-1 had much better effectivity and was much less vulnerable to hits compared to GM-1 stored under pressure. Disadvantage was the sensitivity for humidity what could cause icing of the charger, valves and "nozzles"(?). Furhtermore it took quite long until the engine reacted to GM-1, especially in long piping systems (up to 1min), because the liquid GM-1 evaporated in the warm piping system at the beginning until the pipes were cooled down, too. Only when the pipes were cooled down enough the liquid GM-1 reached the engine. I don´t know how long it took later in the serial fighter installations.

niklas

Offline Glasses

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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2001, 04:11:00 PM »
Thank you Flakbait if and when you do these tests again please send a notice to HTC  to see if they can correct it and give the extra 25 MPH that are sorely needed at that alt .

Again,  Thank you for taking the time for posting it.

P.S. Maybe Verm can put an angle on this.

Offline R4M

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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2001, 04:21:00 PM »
Ahhhhh....the long ,old Ta-152 hi alt lack of speed discussion   :)

This is yet another example of Pyro not saying a word about a well documented matter wich is shown is not right in AH.

(being the Fw190A5's speed, and the Fw190F8 other quite evident examples of this).


I don't wish to get a flame for this, but I want to remark it. Still not a word about the 190A5's low alts speed,neither about the F8's loadouts, and still nothing,too, about the Ta152H's hi alt speed.   :(

[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: R4M ]