Bring the F-104 to AH!

[Andy Bush]

Jigster...a minor point. I think you are referring to the NF-104 operated by NASA and used for very high altitude work. This aircraft was modified with small 'jet' nozzles for use when the aircraft reached its max altitude. The issue was not one of zero G...instead, it was one of being far enough out of the atmospehere that the normal controls were no longer effective.

I've flown the 104 at zero G (at much lower altitudes, obviously!!) and the aircraft responds the same as any other in that attitude.

I would agree with Hartmann's opinion regarding the readiness of the LW to operate the 104 beginning when it did. They went from a subsonic, non-afterburning, relatively simple avionics air force to a double sonic, state of the art air force much too quickly. The high attrition rate was as much a factor of pilot error and inexperience as it was maintenance error.

Combine that with a heavy dose of 'you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much', and you've got a problem in the making.

It's hard to otherwise explain why no other European air force had the same deadly experience with the aircraft as did the LW.

Andy

[SnakeEyes]

 

Combine that with a heavy dose of 'you can always tell a German but you can't tell him much', and you've got a problem in the making.

Hehe... damn that is true.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Jigster]

I have a minor point as well  

It was later turned over to NASA, but the Air Force Aerospace Research Pilots School used them first

From what I gathered from Yeager's autobiography they were indeed using it for zero-G manuvering, but in the way the space capsule reactor motors worked (manuvering in the abscence of air) and not normal "flying" zero-G manuvers.  

Original purpose (if I remember right) was to counter the pitch up problem at the upper atomosphereic levels when traveling at super-sonic speeds in the 104, and to continue to excert enough pressure on the nose to keep the plane at zero-G for short durration that would allow the pilot to remain at high altitude.

sound right?

[Andy Bush]

Jigster

That's right!

All of that sounds good to me. Pitch up in the 104 could be pretty sporty and would not be something I would want to try at 100,000'.

Andy

[Jigster]

Whats really bad was Yeager had his worse accident in the NF-104...lost control at 104,000 ft, engine had flamed out as 60,000 (which was normal, he was suppose to dive to spin the turbine RPM's back up and fire it off at 40,000 ft) the plane pitched up, and the reaction jets in the nose didn't help, burned all the peroxide fuel trying to get the nose down.

By now it was in a flat spin, and the turbine RPM's had fallen off and quit turning, leaving no control over the plane.

After 13 turns he punched out (Bud Anderson was in the area that day, in a T-33, playing as an un-offical chase plane, and had encouraged him to get out) and while falling down, the seat, with the rocket engine still smoldering, caught in the chute lines, severing some. It then came through his pressure-suit face plate and ignited the pure oxygen.

Apparently that docter knew what he was doin cause you still can't tell Yeager had been human barbeque. Burnt his whole face up and he lost part of two fingers when he cut his glove off.  

[Dinger]

And IIRC they cross-cut that scene with a fan dancer in The Right Stuff.

[Westy]

 I envy your time in the 104 Andy. (Actually all your flight time, but the 104 time especially   ) The 104 was my dream plane growing up a a kid, along side WWII aircraft and the A4 "Scooter".

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Animal]

Sorry Andy I meant the F-104

F-4 is a nice machine

F-104 LOOKS like a flying turd, I wondered how it handle.

[MiG Eater]

 

Originally posted by Westy:

  .... F-104 was heavily influenced by the 1917 Albatros C.V/17

Maybe so, but I vote no to the F-104 until we get the same cool wood paneling  

   

MiG
p.s.   Took this at Rhinebeck in early October.  If y'all can make it its WELL worth the trip.

[funked]

If your turds look more like Starfighters than Phantoms then you need to see a doctor.  

[Animal]

we know we have a medical problem when we start naming our turds "Starfighter" and  "Phantom"  

Actually my turds look more like the F-117.
After a nasty hangover they can look quite like an A-10

[Duckwing6]

Jezzz i'm still wondering how they kept the engines from having a flameout at 70k+

i mean ther's not really a whole lot of oxygen to breath for them ..

(think there was a story of a Phantom doing some extreme altitude zoom climb then it had a dual flameout and went up a bit further on a balistic trajectory .. story said they coasted down to some 24k till they could relight)

DW6

[SnakeEyes]

No wonder I don't remember seeing that in The Right Stuff... I kept tryin' to see the fan dancer's tits, and didn't notice Yeager's bailout scenes.  

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Dinger]

Yeah, I didn't see it either till I got a DVD player and went frame-by-frame through the sequence.  Right as she starts getting interesting, you can see an F104 shoot up really high. Cross cut to LBJ and the thing sputters and flails, dropping back earthwards, things are looking pretty bad.  Back to dancer -is it? could it be? YES!
Punches out over the desert.

[Westy]

Thanks Mig!!!  That is a really nice picture.

-Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-03-2000).]