Author Topic: Critique of P47n vs. Spit  (Read 981 times)

Offline olskool2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
      • Total Nonsense
Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« on: August 18, 2009, 05:03:33 PM »
 Been wallowing around in the Jug lately, and am actually quite enjoying it. I don't have a lot of experience effectively E fighting and gunnery is -not- a strong point for me, so it has been a challenge.

Other than my horrid shooting, are there any lessons I can learn from this fight? Should I have bailed out of the fight before it got as slow as it did? Should I have gained more E before pursuing the spit after his stall? Are the angles I'm trying for on my spiral climbs off?

Anyway, here's the link, any help with fighting spits will be appreciated, as I have a long standing hatred of and inability to fight them.  :furious

http://www.filedropper.com/spitvs47n

Offline Qrsu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 05:26:36 PM »
I thought you flew that really well. Considering you guys were practically co-alt on the initial merge, you held your E a lot better than he did. Looks like you suffer from the same issues I do... gunnery.  :D

I think had you extended out again after that nice rope,  rather than climb, you would have been sitting pretty good for another pass at him. You both stalled out but he was able to accelerate in the climb much faster. Build the momentum first like you did on your first few passes and the Jug will zoom climb pretty well.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:29:51 PM by Qrsu »
Cursed
80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline olskool2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
      • Total Nonsense
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 05:32:48 PM »
Thanks for the compliment <S>

Seems like extending at the top of the rope wouldn't have been a good idea either with a spit. It would have climbed up and got into guns ranges before I could have extended far enough, or so I think. I could be 100% incorrect on that assessment. Just seems like the spit would be able to accelerate to best climb speed before I could establish any distance to work with, and would just have had him at my low six.

Edit: This would have been my sixth kill, the 15 minutes before this was probably my best streak in a jug, it can be pretty sneaky.  :devil


« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 05:37:23 PM by olskool2 »

Offline Eagleclaw

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 05:42:05 PM »
I have flown the jug a few times in the DA and have found that it can take a LOT more punishment in the DA than the main arenas, that being said, don't think you can't be blown away by a 109. :) . Okay, You want to get a good angle on the enemy on your first approach, fire a few rounds, when he comes to meet you, dive and gain E. At that point you can do Immelmans, loops, figure eights, etc. I have tried to use the stalling technique but always end up with blood and petrol on the windshield. Use the P47's advantages, and exploit the enemie's weaknesses. Hope this will help.
The day no hoes would fly......

Offline Wedge1126

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 166
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2009, 05:45:29 PM »
I have flown the jug a few times in the DA and have found that it can take a LOT more punishment in the DA than the main arenas, ...
:huh
Wedge

Offline Eagleclaw

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 298
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2009, 05:56:08 PM »
:huh

What? I have taken many a hit in a jug and it seems to me that in the DA, they can take a lot more punishment. I can hear more pings in the DA, I also see more holes in the windshield. Try it yourself, it does this for me anyway. I have taken severe punishment to the ailerons and flaps before and they were still usable.
The day no hoes would fly......

Offline uptown

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8566
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2009, 07:32:25 PM »
You were fighting one of the better spixteen pilots in the game. Keep your E up and try to get him in a snap shot when he turns. Climb back up and set up the next attack. Don't get suckered into a turn fight unless you're in the P47D11 or 25. Stay off the flaps in that matchup. I've fought Gat76 alot and he likes to get his target low and slow. He's very good at getting folks to use up their E. Which is what he did in this case. When he stalled out would have been a good time to pounce.  :salute
Lighten up Francis

Offline Qrsu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 07:36:52 PM »
Thanks for the compliment <S>

Seems like extending at the top of the rope wouldn't have been a good idea either with a spit. It would have climbed up and got into guns ranges before I could have extended far enough, or so I think. I could be 100% incorrect on that assessment. Just seems like the spit would be able to accelerate to best climb speed before I could establish any distance to work with, and would just have had him at my low six.



I'd say that's pretty accurate. You have to take into account, even though the Jug can outrun a Spit in level flight at almost any altitude, the Spit can accelerate from stall speed to 250mph or so much quicker. So unless you've got enough horizontal difference between you and the spit after stalling, I'd dive out a bit and then extend... because the P-47 destroys the Spit in a dive. You can then, probably zoom climb up to a safe alt for another pass once you've given yourself a bit of distance and then attack again.

This of course is all relative; pilot skill&experience really plays a factor and my knowledge of E fighting is rudimentary for the most part. Someone might be able to give you much sounder advice sooner or later...

 :salute

Cursed
80th FS "Headhunters"

Offline olskool2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
      • Total Nonsense
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 08:34:51 PM »
We weren't ever low and slow or in a real turning fight. His first stall came from both of us chopping throttle hard trying for a snap shot, I'm just not sure how I should have proceeded from then.

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 10:36:37 PM »
I can’t get the film to play past 1:56, it keeps closing the film viewer and offering to send a message to Microsoft.  So this isn’t going to be so much of a critique of the film as some pointers for success.  I’m also not a jug aficionado, but when I do fly it I use it like an F4U for the most part. 
Good spit pilot or not, you can dictate the fight with the P47N, and there’s not much a spit can do about it.  He can’t leave, because you’ll just run him down and shoot him.  He can’t catch you, because you’re faster.  He can’t make you turn, because he can’t force you to do anything.  He’s at your mercy, at least until you run out of fuel or a faster bad guy shows up.  With your guns, it’s just going to take a tickle at convergence to wreck his day.
That’s all good stuff, but not if you don’t use the advantages you have over the spit.  From what I saw, you can improve on a few things, starting with the merge.  (Of course these are just my opinions, don’t take them as gospel).
The merge doesn’t need to be a textbook dueling type set-up to be what I would call a merge (bear in mind I’m just some long-haired hippy-type fella who lives by a cornfield, a “redneck” expert at best).  I’d call that section about 35 seconds in a merge, more or less.  Right before that, you flew a level, flat turn (E-bleeding) to set it up.  You also seem to be randomly raising/lowering throttle, with no apparent goal, which is bleeding speed with no purpose.  The spit dove into it (building speed, trading alt for speed, and options).  You’re flying at “average” or “middle” speeds through the merge.  IMO, that’s playing into the spit’s hands.  Also notice what he does at about 41 seconds into the film?  He immels, which is “normal”, predictable, (and exploitable).  He’s doing that because it’s a “good” thing for him to do at that point.  Had you followed suit, you’d have died.  Also, had you tried a rope at that point (you looked tempted), you’d have died.  Had you turned back into him, you’d have died.
Notice what he does next?  He doesn’t follow you, but rather turns away.  He did that to get you to turn back into him, which you did.  He’s trying to sucker you into a tighter turning, slower, fight.  He’d love to trick you into a rolling scissors, but isn’t happy about the idea of all your guns behind him, so chooses to turn back into you again, hoping you’ll turn too.
All this, IMO, because you set the fight up poorly.  How do you fix it?  Start with the merge, and being more cautiously aggressive.  Not suicidal aggressive, but aggressive enough to make him respond to you, instead of letting him figure out how to get you to play his game.  Start with the merge.
Pre-merge, it’s a good idea to get some serious speed.  To do that, you’ll need to dive, and trade alt for speed.  The alt is no good all by itself.  It’s value is in what it can give you.  In this case, it can give you speed.  If you’re going to fight, get serious!  Dive, and get some speed!   Don’t dive excessively, but enough to get some speed!  As you merge, if both planes pull immelmanns (go up) the one who‘s lower, is kind of “behind” the higher guy.  That’s something you can use!  Get into a position to be under his belly at the merge!  Next, try to merge “uphill” with him still diving.  Looking at the face of a clock, try to avoid merging from 9 o’clock to 3 o’clock.  Flying from the 8 to the 2 is much better, and I really like 7:30- 1:30.  Why?  One, by being nose-up, you already have a head-start into the immelmann, while with his nose still down, he has further to go…  Next, since you’ve both gathered speed for your merge, you’re both probably too fast to really turn at your best!  But, with your nose up, you’re already slowing to be closer to your best turn rate, while he’s still accelerating (nose-down).  You now have three tidbits in your favor.  You started lower, you got a head start on the immelmann, and you’re at a better speed.  If all goes well, you’ll come over the top of your immelmann, with him only a bit past ½ way through his (your guns pointed at his cockpit).  A possible shot, but more likely an opportunity for you to roll from inverted to level, and pull for a second immelmann, set up right on his six!  If you don’t dive initially for speed pre-merge, you won’t have enough speed to do that!  You’ll be slow, but behind him at this point.  Kill him quick!  Use flaps if you need to, but if you miss, DON’T FOLLOW HIM!  Put your nose down, pick up enough speed to extend (to maybe 3K), and do it all again.  If you succumb to the urge to follow him, things will probably get bad for you pretty quick.  As you get more familiar with the plane you’ll be able to be more aggressive at that point, but it’ll take some time to develop the throttle and flap skills.
Other things to look at here- he may try for an HO while you merge.  If he does that, and you’re under him, he has to push forward on the stick (red-out!).  That’s a tough shot to make.  Also, you don’t have to immel after the merge.  An option is to just go straight for about 1000yds, and smoothly pull up into a rope.  If he immels and follows you up, he dies.  If he immels but doesn’t come up on the rope, you simply get to attack him from above.  He may do neither, but instead blow through the merge.  You can chase him down, and force him to turn back into you, in which case you try the merge again…
This particular spit pilot may not have been willing to merge like that, but most are.  A good pilot knows the game, and is more cautious, but also more aggressive.  Against a guy who won’t immel as you merge because you have the better, lower, nose-up position, you may be better off to keep your speed, and let him have the bottom spot for the second merge (try to do it right on the first merge).  This may convince him that you’re not as experienced/smart as he thought at first, and convince him to pull a hard immelmann as you go over him.  Just fly straight for about 1000-1200 yards, and smoothly pull up into a vertical zoom.  He bled E on the immelmann, you didn’t, so you’ll out-zoom him for a rope, or gain a high position on him if he won’t follow the rope.
After the merge, lots can happen.  But you’ve got to start somewhere.  It’s also  going to take time to figure out how fast you want to be, how hard and when to pull the immelmann, and how to judge/base your timing and maneuvers on his plane-type and E-state.  ‘Course, it’s fun too!



MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Spatula

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1486
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 04:06:48 AM »
IMO, many things let you down in that engagement:
 - gunnery. You had him at least twice at the mercy of 8x50cals but no joy.
 - Simply not aggressive enough. You give him give him too much room at the start of the fight to use the awesome acceleration of the spit to build his E up quickly.
 - You failed to capitalise on his spin (or even recognise it). Unless the film viewer was playing tricks on me, he got himself into a nasty spin, and you let him off the hook. He'll be in a mad panic trying to correct his spin all the time thinking you're just a second from blasting him - when he's in a panic he's not thinking straight, you've won the mental game, now press home the kill while you can before he regains his composure.

I agree with Mtnman's comments on seemingly random/aimless use of throttle. That big jug needs all the power it can get to keep it near its best turn rate. You dont want a 'who can fly the slowest/race to the back' type of scissor fight in a jug against a spit, cause it wont be pretty, so keep that throttle fire-walled and keep your speed up a bit.

To stay competitive against a better sustained turner (like a spit) you want to keep closer to your best turn rate speed (corner velocity) than to the spits (but def as far away from a slow stall turn type of fight as possible). You will find you will be a lot more competitive at beating it/matching it in the reversals if you can keep your speed up a bit. This means you need as much acceleration as possible to overcome the drag of turning. Of course the more you turn, the slower you get, because the engine cannot produce enough power to overcome the drag of turning at your corner speed. But you can give your aircraft a boost. If you got alt (and you did), keep your nose below the horizon and keep the fight descending, this way you are using earth's 1G to help you stay at your corner speed. While you have alt, keeping the fight a bit faster than you would normally by keeping the fight going downwards keeps you competitive against the spit - at least until you run out of alt. Make sure you get the positional advantage you need before you get too low, and get the kill, or use the rest of your alt to bug out, because once you hit the deck with little speed, you're out of options...

Descending fights are fun, fast, high-G, and even a jug will give a spit a mighty headache in an all-out knife-fight. Just get the kill while you have alt! Try keep the fight between 220-260 ish. This is what i do in the Mustang to great effect.
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline olskool2

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 76
      • Total Nonsense
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 11:17:22 AM »
IMO, many things let you down in that engagement:
 - gunnery. You had him at least twice at the mercy of 8x50cals but no joy.
 - Simply not aggressive enough. You give him give him too much room at the start of the fight to use the awesome acceleration of the spit to build his E up quickly.
 - You failed to capitalise on his spin (or even recognise it). Unless the film viewer was playing tricks on me, he got himself into a nasty spin, and you let him off the hook. He'll be in a mad panic trying to correct his spin all the time thinking you're just a second from blasting him - when he's in a panic he's not thinking straight, you've won the mental game, now press home the kill while you can before he regains his composure.


I couldn't capitalize on his spin because I wasn't far from entering one just as severe myself. Jug seems a little more unstable than I thought and I didn't think I had space to even get my nose on him so I just built up some E. Even after my first rope I could bring the nose up enough for the shot but it was bouncing around so much I couldn't center the piper (Could be partially due to my old joystick, not sure on that yet).

I'm also not real sure on what my aimless use of the throttle was, unless the film viewer is messing up (Seems like it might be since some people can't watch it). The only time I remember cutting throttle was in the vert scissors which made him stall. If you'll watch

Edit: Watched the film again, I had a lot more time than I originally thought to attack or build more E off of his stall, which was probably my biggest mistake.

Mtnman - We were never in a position to merge nose to nose.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:21:54 AM by olskool2 »

Offline WMLute

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4512
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 02:37:43 PM »
What? I have taken many a hit in a jug and it seems to me that in the DA, they can take a lot more punishment. I can hear more pings in the DA, I also see more holes in the windshield. Try it yourself, it does this for me anyway. I have taken severe punishment to the ailerons and flaps before and they were still usable.

Most in the DA (at Dweeb Lake) are noobs with horrible gunnery. 

(hence all the pings w/ little to no damage when they shoot at you)

Like was allready said.

You missed a few good gun solutions and did nothing when they were stalled out and spinning away.  You shoulda dropped flaps and low yoyo'd at 'em and blow 'em out of the sky.

I also agree you were not aggresive enough.  Don't give the nme time to build E.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 02:43:39 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Sonicblu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 653
Re: Critique of P47n vs. Spit
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2009, 12:47:48 PM »
Here are a couple of things I saw. He used a move on you I use alot in the spit.

He let you get on his six. He then flat turns and as you pull lead for a gun solution and fires. He starts to roll and change his lift vector, as he rolls it puts him on your six, also sinces he know you are pulling lead and cant see him if he stays on course you would get a hit. However he is already doing a barrel roll and look at about 2 min in the vid when you see him again he is comeing out to the right of your nose. You are out of sync and cant get a shot. This here is not bad gunnery it is poor acm.  He just lets you over shoot and he will come out on your six every time.

Ok You have more E coming in, keep it when he goes into a flat turn pull up into the vert and barrell roll to the right, it is counter intuitive but it will put you at his six with more E and a high % shot. If you cant get a higher % shot and he still flat turns do it again. Search the BBS for vector displacement roll this is the perfect situation to use it in.
Now after the overshoot you did the right thing you started a roll actually starting to do the same thing to him. He jinked to hard to get the solution and snap rolled into a stall. If I were you and didnt have e left I would have put notch of flaps and started a barrel roll only If he had not of stalled. At that point you did to the best thing you went in the vert. As other have said you should have gotten aggressive and pounce him in the stall.

At the end as you tried to rope him you were doing the right thing just stay up until he has stalled out then pounce. If you miss dont think go right back up and hold your own stall flaps out. One of the problem is if you miss judge his E his cannons can make up a 600yd difference and still get you. Which is what happened.

ON the first rope you come back down and you do miss a shot. But look at it again he does the exact same move to you as his open move. you are already at 90 degrees he just rolls onto your six. As you go back up for another rope he noses level to use his exceleration to gain lots of E. At this point I would be thinking I know I cant out climb him on the rope but my cannons will make up the difference if I get enough E. Now as you come back down you missed a good shot. If you miss or have low % shot dont take it go back up. NOw here you just did his work for him you turn back to him in the rope in range of his cannons.  just extent up hold the rope until he falls away and then pounce.

Look me up some time I will help you practise the vector displacment roll and the  flat turn roll he used on you. LOOK up murdrs post on " why merge" He explans the move.

Also look at the film and see what you did right but could do better. You just have to fine tune some things to make them effective.

S
See you in the skys.