Author Topic: Stuck Rudder  (Read 417 times)

funked

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Stuck Rudder
« on: February 29, 2000, 07:48:00 PM »
Read this in the readme1.txt file:

"A bug occasionally causing the rudder to stick at full deflection should be fixed."

You fixed it?  If so please contact Boeing, the 737 could use this same fix!  

Offline Toad

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2000, 08:11:00 PM »
Funk,

The Boeing boys redesigned the rudder PCU in the new series 737's.

Of course, they claimed they didn't need to because there never was a problem anyway.

 
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

funked

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2000, 07:45:00 AM »
"Of course, they claimed they didn't need to because there never was a problem anyway."

That's what worries me!

If 5 years goes by and there's no more uncommanded split-s maneuvers, I'll believe they fixed it.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-01-2000).]

Offline Ripsnort

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2000, 08:11:00 AM »
Well, I'm a Boeing employee , and I can say this: Blame it on the pilots union...Boeing told the pilots union back in 1985 that for a very affordable price, all A/C could have small camera's mounted in 3 locations of every aircraft that would film, like a black box, the A/C's wing surfaces, etc. to help determine the events in the case of a catostrophic event...all the "unknowns" of unsolved accidents (Pittsburgh,Denver, etc.) would have POSSIBLY prevented future disasters if the Pilots Union had gotten off their high horses and accepted the plan.

They rejected the cameras for the same reason they rejected the flight recorders years earlier(but were  made mandantory by the FAA)....they didn't want their employers to use the information against them in case they made a critical error, and lived.

Keep this in mind too, EVERY 5.5 SECONDS, A BOEING 737 TAKES OFF SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD...now what do you think the odds of having a problem every now and then is, when you have that many A/C flying around the world at any given time?

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[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 03-01-2000).]

Offline Duckwing6

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2000, 09:20:00 AM »
i'm an Engineer working for an airline .. i'm working on 737's (Engines and APUs)..
Boeing and the FAA are a bit quick in sarting with mod programs just to satisfy the public (they *have* to do something) .. even tho sometimes the causes are not clear yet.

We're getting swamped with AD's and Alert SB's recently and there seems to be no clear line of trouble shooting before that -> just my opinion

Anyhow the 737 is one of the safest Airplanes in the world .. it's rugged, it's simple.. it's an airplane i would fly everytime

[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 03-01-2000).]

Offline Dinger

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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2000, 10:20:00 AM »
Jeez, the guy can't even crack a joke without the Boeing police jumping down his throat.
Nobody's doubting the 737 is a nice ride.  Hell, I'll take a 737 over anything that Airbus makes, or MD made, or even Boeing (with the possible exception of the early 747s -- before they took out the toilets.  Dunno about the 777, never been in one).  The L1011 may have been a superior design, but the boeing one made money.
(there.  Do I get my BBJ now?)
Still, it would be nice to figure this one out, rather than try to fix a problem they haven't found yet.
As for the cameras, wasn't that also one of the recommendations made after the British Airtours 737 (wrong engine shut down) investigation?

funked

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2000, 03:54:00 PM »
Hey I like 737's - Southwest is my airline of choice, nuff said.  But the handling of the rudder pcu problem...

Sincerely,

Funked

Actuation Systems Engineer

Offline SnakeEyes

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2000, 11:21:00 PM »
Are we counting the SilkAir flight or not??

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2000, 12:12:00 AM »
EeeeeeeeWWWWWW! Boeing appears to be a bit touchy about this one!

The pilot's union? The PILOT's union?? Somehow ALPA is responsible for the design of a rudder PCU? Nah, doubt it.

And cameras would have fixed it? Hey man, Boeing owns 737's..put some cameras on those dudes and fly, fly, fly, fly, fly!

I personally don't have a problem with cameras. The well WAS poisoned by the CVR <cockpit voice recorder> however. That DAM PILOT'S UNION had a promise from the FAA and the NTSB that the recordings AND text would _never_ be released to the press.

That promise has NEVER been made good. You think how your family would feel (after your untimely demise) when some of the things you've said to buddies as jokes or things you said under extreme stress were suddenly in the headlines across the nation.

If the Feds had the integrity to honor the CVR promise, the cameras probably would have been a slam dunk install. But they didn't.
So who's to blame here?

On another note....

Let's see. The first USAF tankers HAD no powered rudder, and water injection was paired to single generators. So, on T/O, water injection to 1&2 were on Gen 1 and 3&4 were on Gen 2 or something like that. So, when u lost Gen 1 or Gen 2, (and they would trip at  -.2 Neg G, so a good bump in the runway could do it), you lost all water injection on one side and with no powered rudder, just leg, to counter the yaw. At max gross weight, (standard "practice for war" takeoffs) off the side of the runway or a crash was a real strong possibility.

Eventually, when enough good men died in huge fireballs, they put on a powered rudder and split the water injection into symmetrical pairs as they should have done to begin with. (no doubt the USAF pilot's union held this up as well   )

Unfortunately this rudder PCU unit had a problem. Seems it liked to go hard over. When enough good men died in flaming fireballs, they put in a powered rudder cutoff switch on the center console.

Since the USAF did the testing, these changes were part of the 707 line when it started (the tanker was actually called the 717, even though it predated the 707 I think). So, the 707 avoided most of these rudder problems.

Don't tell me, however, that there isn't a history of rudder pcu problems. The 737 is not the same pcu but has problems in the same area (hardovers), IMHO.

Now, that being said, Boeing, ANY Boeing (OK, the stuff they bought from McD is NOT Boeing) is my first choice of aircraft.

Boeing is the best transport airplane builder in the world. I love 'em. Belts and suspenders engineering, always have a backup.
They bring ya home when things go to sh*t..usually  

But to pretend that there isn't a rudder problem...

To place the blame on the pilot's union....

Lol!

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-02-2000).]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2000, 05:33:00 PM »
....and lest I forget on that camera deal...

Back when they built those first 1000-1500 737's they came with a really limited Flight Data Recorder, the OTHER black box. Those early ones only captured about 7-12 parameters, I think. Pretty crude.

They COULD have built and installed far more sophisticated FDR's, even back then. The ones now have many more parameters, some up in the 60-70 range. These could show rudder/flight control position just as well as a camera. The technology for better FDR's was pretty much there YEARS ago.

You know why they didn't do it? Because it COST too much. The bean counters at the airlines didn't feel they needed anything for "after the crash". "Why spend our precious bucks on that? It's too late then." The FAA let them get by with it, too.

One, at least, of the 737's that crashed with a suspect rudder pcu problem had the old "dumb" FDR. Why wasn't it upgraded a long, long time ago?

Because when the NTSB suggested it and the FAA proposed it, the ATA got them to delay it.

There's five major players in Aviation in the USA.

The FAA. Their mandate is to promote/enhance aviation in the US. Safety is actually a by-product of that mission. Safer skies means more people will fly.

The Aircraft Manufacturers. They are in it to be successful in business. Yeah, they like to build cool, good aircraft simply because they MAKE LOTS OF MONEY. Generally, they will build whatever the ATA wants to buy and include those features that the ATA will pay for.

The Air Transport Association (ATA). The high-roller CEO's of the airlines run this outfit. They have one goal: MAKE MORE MONEY. Saftey is a concern, but it's a concern on a risk/cost basis. They'll be JUST safe enough so that it doesn't affect the bottom line and pay JUST enough to get to that level of safety. They have finance dweebs to figure out how much they should invest in which areas to give an "acceptable" level of safety. At any airline, this is not "ZERO ACCIDENTS" <which NO ONE can guarantee>...it's as close as they can come _given what they want to spend._

This attitude permeates everything from buying an airplane to training pilots and flight attendants even down to how much they'll pay for smoke goggles.

The NTSB. These guys are theoretically the ones with no axe to grind. They look at the accident, try to figure the cause and suggest a solution. They have no "mandate" power, they can't even make the FAA do anything it doesn't want to do. I like these guys, overall. They want you to live.

The Air Line Pilots Association, ALPA. The goal is to have their members make lots of money flying airplanes AND live long enough to retire and spend it on faster horses, younger women, older whiskey and cool cars. So every time they land and stand in the doorway saying "good-bye" they have successfully made a small step towards surviving until retirement.

Now, of these groups, who do you think most shares your desire to have a smooth flight, to takeoff and land with the minimum of stress? To survive?

Hint: Who is always the first to arrive at the scene of an aircraft accident?

You got it...those dam pilots.

To suggest pilots are anti-safety...

Well, to even suggest that might get me off on a RANT!  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

funked

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Stuck Rudder
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2000, 09:31:00 AM »
SnakeEyes:  No, I think SilkAir goes in the "Oh toejam my co-pilot is saying prayers in Arabic" bin.


Offline SnakeEyes

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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2000, 10:31:00 PM »
Hmmm... anyone for a ride on SWA to Burbank, CA?  

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