Author Topic: The Nightmare on Brewster Street  (Read 3292 times)

Offline hlbly

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2009, 02:43:35 PM »
Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .

Offline Motherland

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 02:44:35 PM »
Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .
I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.

Offline REVRAND

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2009, 03:03:38 PM »
Revrand:
Sorry man, but you are the one who is basically claiming that HTC is lying on their performance charts for the Brewster. You'll just naturally catch flak for that.


The thought never crossed my mind about HTC in any way. Being that the Brew is so new to AH, I underestimated its cababilities. And that it in the right hands is a very capable plane. If the point came across like that my apologies. I just was in the DA in my N1K and was being chased by a Brew and it gained on me even though I was using WEB.    :salute

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2009, 04:20:24 PM »
Two questions . Can a Brew really out turn A6M5 IRL ? Should a radial engined plane really retain E well ? Not being a Smart A.. . Would like to know from some of you more knowledgeable fellas .

A properly cowled radial engine aircraft can be QUITE slick. As the F4U series demonstrates.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2009, 04:22:34 PM »

The thought never crossed my mind about HTC in any way. Being that the Brew is so new to AH, I underestimated its cababilities. And that it in the right hands is a very capable plane. If the point came across like that my apologies. I just was in the DA in my N1K and was being chased by a Brew and it gained on me even though I was using WEB.    :salute

I don't know for sure, but I don't THINK there is a prop plane in the game that can level at a speed beyond the dive limitations of any other prop fighter.

Seeing how long the Brewster retains excess speed would be interesting. My gut tells me probably no better than an FM2 though.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Widewing

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2009, 11:36:21 PM »
I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.

The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both.  It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline AirFlyer

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2009, 12:41:22 AM »
The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both.  It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.


My regards,

Widewing

Gonna second this. Ran into WMaker a few times while he was in a Brew. and I was in an A6M5b and he's mopped the floor with me each time it seems.
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Offline Demetrious

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 02:31:02 AM »
I doubt it, but it can't in game either. The Brewster is meat on the table for either variety of the A6M in game.

I will add my voice to those denouncing this heinous lie. Any fighter can out-roll a Zero, pretty much, but the Brewster can actually climb with it, which makes it unique amongst the early-war plane set (most of which can't climb at all.) The power/weight ratio of the Brewster is nearly as good as that of either A6M, so the Brewster can yo-yo with impunity to stay inside a Zero's turn. (You try that in, say, the P-40, and you might not have enough energy to follow the Zero long enough for a good shot if he decides to go vertical, which he should.) The Brewster is one of the few planes that can really mix it up with a Zero, instead of being limited to just energy tactics.

Offline Wmaker

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2009, 11:16:49 AM »
I'm lazy so rather than typing a longwinded reply myself I'll just quote Squire's excellent post on an earlier thread:

"The whole business with the Brewster in US service came down to a single dogfight on June 4th 1942 at Midway. The 15 Buffalo and 7 Wildcats were launched late vs an IJN strike of 108 a/c. They were faced with 4-1 odds as well as this was the first combat of almost all the USMC pilots in the war. They fought as well as could be expected, and actually impressed the Japanese. It would have made no difference if all the fighters were F4Fs in that fight, none whatsovever.

The Brewster in Dutch and RAF/RAAF service in the East Indies is a circumstance where the air force is faced with the land ans sea forces being defeated and forced to withdraw, it was not the fault of the Brewster that they were in such poor circumstances. The presence of F4Fs or P-40s or Hurricanes would not have prevented that campaign from being the disaster it was. Nor would they have altered the Singapore campaign.

Its ironic that the P-40 at Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines is not blamed for the Allied defeats there, or the F4F blamed for the fall of Wake island, but somehow it seems many want to blame the poor Brewster for all the ills of the Allied forces in those early weeks and months of the Pacific war in other places. Its more to do with our human need for symbols. We dont like defeats, and anything associated with a deafeat gets all the harsh mythology that goes with it, and the opposite for the good times, where victories come, we over glamorize anything associated with winning, the P-51, the Spitfire, the Hellcat, ect. Its the same for ships, tanks, guns, and anything else we associate with a particular battle.

So take what they say about it with a grain of salt, and understand the context of the very difficult circumstances it fought in before beleiving all the over hyped smears and half truths. Was it a great fighter? no, but it wasn't as bad as many make it out to be through the crud colored glasses of Allied retreat in those early days of the war.

As for Finnish service, the Finns had the benefit of being able to operate it for almost three long years from airfields that were not over run, and were able to fight a long war of attirition over home territory against poorer Sovier pilots and tactics in many cases. I take nothing away from their accomplishments, they did a splendid job, but the circumstances were very different."


I totally agree with Squire. This is partly the reason why there are still discussions where Brewster is sometimes referred as the worst fighter of WWII. Considering that things like the I-153, I-16, Gloster Gladiator, CR.42 fought in WWII the whole question is absurd. But the myth lives on when a big war whinning nation happened to get the snot beat out of them in one aireal combat the plane it self had to be complete junk...

Regarding the Brewster vs. Zero-5,

Given equal pilots, the reach of the .50 cals and the vastly better rollrate are a real problem to the Zeke driver but the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 11:26:40 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Demetrious

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2009, 03:26:52 PM »
Quote
As for Finnish service, the Finns had the benefit of being able to operate it for almost three long years from airfields that were not over run, and were able to fight a long war of attirition over home territory against poorer Sovier pilots and tactics in many cases. I take nothing away from their accomplishments, they did a splendid job, but the circumstances were very different."

It's worth mentioning that even after the Russians started bringing Yaks and MiGs into play, the Brewster still managed to hold it's own. The absolutely spectacular performance before that, however, was a combination of Russian shortcomings and Finnish excellence. The same statement can be applied to the ground war in both cases.


Quote
the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.

Precisely. The excellent power/weight ratio of the Brewster allows it more time and more opportunities to nail the Zero at the apex of it's yo-yos or such; but the Brewster must avoid sustained vertical manuvering with a Zero at all costs.

Offline Wmaker

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 05:44:15 PM »
It's worth mentioning that even after the Russians started bringing Yaks and MiGs into play, the Brewster still managed to hold it's own. The absolutely spectacular performance before that, however, was a combination of Russian shortcomings and Finnish excellence. The same statement can be applied to the ground war in both cases.

MiGs and Hurricanes were the first inline engined fighters Finns faced as early as fall of '41. And they did take quite a beating aswell. It was later in the game when later Yaks and La-5s started to be a problem. Then Brewsters were flown in larger formations and at times with 109Gs as top cover. One thing that Squire didn't mention is that although Soviet fighter tactics were inferior to the tactics used by the Finns, Brewster were usually/many times significantly out-numbered. The question about the individual pilot quality isn't really very clear-cut. From the material what I've read I've come to a conclusion that the training wasn't generally up to the Finnish/western standards but there still were talented indivuduals who learned despite the poorer training and were tougher adversaries. One thing that basically every Finnish fighter pilot veteran seems to agree on is the generally poor gunnery skills of the Soviets and this seems to apply to all the phases of the war. They opened fire too early from too far out and usually missed. Of course on the flip side, those that found someone who could shoot may times didn't return to tell the tale...
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 05:48:11 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline Widewing

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 06:20:53 PM »

Regarding the Brewster vs. Zero-5,

Given equal pilots, the reach of the .50 cals and the vastly better rollrate are a real problem to the Zeke driver but the significant climb rate advantage that the Zero enjoys can really be poison for the Brewster. Hi Yo-Yos and spiral climb can be used to defeat the Brewster once it starts gaining Zero on the turn.

This is true for the A6M5, as it climbs better than the A6M2. If the fight begins with the Brewster having an E advantage, it can get very ugly for the Zeke in a hurry.

As I stated, the Brewster is anything but "meat on the table" for the Zero (either). The secret is knowing how to use the Brewster's strengths and its gentle stall to bedevil the Zeke pilot who decides to stall-fight. Like many other match-ups, plane handling skill is often the difference.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Motherland

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2009, 06:27:11 PM »
The B-239 out turns the A6M5, but not the A6M2. It easily out-rolls both.  It sure as hell isn't meat on the table for either. I've flown enough dissimilar aircraft duels with good pilots to recognize that the Brewster can compete with the Zekes. If I run into a Zero while flying a Brewster, the Zeke driver better be a top tier pilot, or he's in deep bandini.


My regards,

Widewing
Sorry, I made the fault of applying my very limited experience with the aircraft to all situations... I was basing my statement on a few fights I had in Beta with various aircraft vs a  Brewster pilot who at this point I can't remember his name. I had taken off in a variety of American carrier aircraft to fight him at low level and slow, where he invariably dominated me, and after a bit I was thinking about whether or not the A6M would do well against it and tried both models, in which I killed him several times with each  with no real effort, getting nothing more serious than a fuel leak in all of the engagements IIRC...

Also I thought Badboy had compared both the A6M2 and 5b with the B239 and found both to have a tighter turn radius but now I see that it was only the A6M2 that he compared.

Offline Wmaker

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2009, 06:30:24 PM »
As I stated, the Brewster is anything but "meat on the table" for the Zero (either).

Yep, and I totally agree. Wasn't trying to dispute what you said at all.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: The Nightmare on Brewster Street
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2009, 07:01:43 PM »
Yep, and I totally agree. Wasn't trying to dispute what you said at all.

I didn't think you were... :)  You know even better than I do.  :aok



My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.