Stumped on trying to find a counter

[Big Rat]

OK finally got a veteran hog stick to try this with and have come to the conclusion that the G2 really doesn't have an advantage doing the double immelman over the hog.  Boomerlu and Sonicblu, I sent you guys both PM's but probably a bit short notice.  I'll reply to your posts tomorrow

 
BigRat

[boomerlu]

Yeah, I just got your PM. Certainly interested in hashing this out in the TA, but I missed the message and I also don't have a lot of time this weekend/next coming week. Cheers. 

[Big Rat]

BigRat,

Glad we understand each other now. Again, my mistake for the initial misreading.

Still - do you think it's a good idea for the Hog to try and match the double immel? I'd think it'd be easier to extend above the G2 while he double immels aggressively and blows his energy trying to get the gunshot (which you promptly deny using whatever guns defense maneuver you choose). Once he is unable to maneuver properly, it'd be a simple matter to do a slice and drop in on his tail.

A bit about the psychology of the first gunshot - I tend not to care if I get pinged a few times as long as I know I'm flying proper energy conserving ACM or have a good shot of surviving via extending etc. E.g., I may yield my 6 in a 109 but perform a spiral climb that I know I can use to convert to significant advantage later. Or if I'm in a 190, I know it's pointless to try to engage in any type of a maneuvering fight so I will yield my 6 and extend away, knowing my speed and roll rate will keep me safe enough for me to either run away or get help. Or even more directly, I may yield a brief snapshot if I know I can give him a very difficult shot.

I'm not sure how most people view this and would certainly appreciate your input. Never hurts to understand your opponents.

boomerlu,

As you read my last post, I finally got a good hog stick with me to work on this.  Actually did a few hog vs hog first to warm up,before I grabbed the 109G2.  I found TC's advice of rounding off the second immelman for the hog to work great and gave the hog the ability to nose up into the 109 if it came in higher.  At this point the we normally found the 109 to have the option to fight the hog at it's game or dive away with it's superior acceleration.  The hog deffinitly had the advantage if the 109 decided to turn at all after the second immelman (or rounded immelman in the hogs case).  It already had a good amount of flaps out and could easily pull inside any sort of turn the 109 could pull at this point.  Not enough E from either plane to do much verticle at this point without hanging there like a big target.

As far as your question on is it a good idea for the hog to try and match the double immel vs simply climbing above the G2, momentarily given it its 6 for the opportunity to come down on top of it.  Well, looking at it from the G2's perspective and I see the hog trying to extend into the verticle, probably at the point I'm perpendicular to the ground and looking out the top of my cockpit.  I'm thinking two options here, first is to relax my immelman to maintain as much E as possible and hopefully can gain enough to go up one more time negating the hogs verticle advantage.  This is kinda risky though, depending on how much E I zapped before seeing what the hog did.  If it wasn't much then I'd pursue, becouse if the hog doesn't turn it back verticle fairly quickly the acceleration of the 109g2 is going to come into play and E states will equalize.  If I pulled the G2 failry aggressively on the second immel and I know I'm going to come out of it slow, chances are I'm going to roll it away from the hog and accellerate the opposite direction. Making this a climbing contest, so I can reset the fight in my advantage over the hog, which climbs like a brick.  So is this a good idea or bad?  well that would depend on the G2's E state when you do it, and how early or late he catches you doing it.  It is something I will experiment with though and see how it works.

Now to the Psychology of first shot   Now this often depends on what you are playing with.  Anything with 4 hispanos on it is a bad thing to give a snapshot to.  I used to love Mossies for this, simply flying through a turning fight and aiming for a point on an enemy cons turn that I knew I could intersect and throw a wall of lead in front of them.  That thing is a buzzsaw if it gets guns on.  Now as far as the one on one first one to turn the corner and get a guns solution psychology.  There's always something unnerving about not quite finishing your turn and the other guy is already opening up on you.  Now if you can assess the situation correctly and know you are going to pull out of his guns solution quickly and can continue to push an advantage from this point, you push through it like normal.  Now if the bullets start hitting your plane before you think the other guy should have a solution this tends to unnerve and cause mistakes. 

whoo, I've done a lot of typing
 
BigRat

[TequilaChaser]

The hog deffinitly had the advantage if the 109 decided to turn at all after the second immelman (or rounded immelman in the hogs case).  It already had a good amount of flaps out and could easily pull inside any sort of turn the 109 could pull at this point.  Not enough E from either plane to do much verticle at this point without hanging there like a big target.

Bingo........was my initial observation from your OP...... especially the underlined - bold part, I quoted.......

edit: as far as , a very experienced 109g2 flyer ( Widewing for example), verses a very experienced F4U1A flyer ( Saxman or AKDogg for example), they would most likely match each others maneuvers 1 to 1, with the victor being the one who did not make the 1st mistake........the 109g2 is, as BigRat posted, just as capable as the F4U1a when flying at a slower IAS(speed).... and has the benefit of the use of flaps same as the hog......

YMMV....

[boomerlu]

BigRat,

Interesting observations. As far as you managing to counter the double immel - it appears even a vertical turn fight is still a turn fight and thus advantages the tighter turning Hog. I think I've observed this before, getting locked into a looping fight in something like a 190 vs Hurri. Even though I had a decided climb advantage, I still couldn't out turn him - he could always force a HO if he desired.

Regarding lazy vertical extension - I guess it's philosophically of matching one extreme with a different extreme. The 109 we've assumed has turned very aggressively for a gunshot, dumping E for angles. My initial reaction was to do the most opposite thing possible - extend and conserve E and let him drop off because he can't keep up.

Granted, a turn fight is just what a hog wants, even if it's vertical so maybe my initial reaction was from flying great climbers too long. So in this case (and this agrees with what you found), you have more room to be more aggressive as the Hog owing to your better turn.

Psychology - I'll keep that in mind in the future. I tend to fly pretty cold, so the amount people panic surprises me a lot.

I snuck up on a semi-afk Zero once (he was there, but had terrible SA, I climbed up behind him and he didn't react at all) and opened fire. I got some hits, but it didn't kill him, and he dove away. I'm in a K4 so I think to myself... oh boy... he's going to force a turn fight so I move to break away.

After I break off, I roll to put my canopy on him and see what he's doing. I see this guy about a mile beneath me turning wildly and spraying his guns into thin air. I must have made him piss his pants
[edit: he augered doing this so I got the kill]

The most you'd get out of me if you surprised me would be a "Huh? I'm being shot at? Oh, how'd he get there?"