23mm Il-2 missing something?

[Anaxogoras]

The 23mm Il-2 seems to be missing 2x100kg bombs.  As things are now its ordnance capacity is identical to the 37mm Il-2, with a maximum of 4x100kg bombs.  From what I understand, the 37mm armament reduced the bomb carrying capacity from 600kg to 400kg (lost a couple of wing hardpoints).

It might be a good idea to split these aircraft in two.  Different loadouts, different ENY, etc.

http://www.aircraft-list.com/db/Ilyushin_Il-2/46/

Wikipedia also shows the Il-2M3 with 600kg of bombs.  Their references include:

* Bergström, Christer. Barbarossa - The Air Battle: July-December 1941. London: Chevron/Ian Allen, 2007. ISBN 978-1-85780-270-2.
    * Donald, Donald and Jon Lake, eds. Encyclopedia of World Military Aircraft. London: AIRtime Publishing, 1996. ISBN 1-880588-24-2.
    * Glantz, David M. and Harold S. Orenstein. The Battle for Kursk 1943: The Soviet General Staff Study. London: Frank Cass, 1999. ISBN 0-71464-493-5.
    * Gordon, Yefim and Sergey Kommissarov. Ilyushin IL-2 and IL-10 Shturmovik. Wiltshire: Crowood Press, 2004. ISBN 1-86126-625-1.
    * Green, William and Gordon Swanborough. "The Annals of Ilyusha: Ilyushin's Proliferous Shturmovik" Air Enthusiast, Issue Twelve, April-July 1980. Bromley, Kent, UK: Pilot Press., 1980. pp. 1—10, 71—77. ISSN 0143-5450.
    * Gunston, Bill. The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft 1875-1995. London: Osprey, 1995. ISBN 1 85532 405 9.
    * Hardesty, Von. Red Phoenix: The Rise of Soviet Air Power, 1941-1945. Washington, DC: Smithsonian Books, 1982. ISBN 1-56098-071-0.
    * Liss, Witold. Ilyushin Il-2 (Aircraft in Profile number 88). Leatherhead, Surrey, UK: Profile Publications Ltd., 1968. No ISBN. Reprinted in 1971 and 1982.
    * Michulec, Robert. Ił-2 Ił-10. Monografie Lotnicze #22 (in Polish). Gdańsk: AJ-Press, 1999. ISBN 83-86208-33-3.
    * Ovčáčík, Michal and Karel Susa. Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik: Il-2 Type 3, Il-2 Type 3M,Il-2KR, UIl-2. Prague, Czech Republic: 4+ Publications, 2006. ISBN 80-87045-00-9.
    * Шавров, В.Б. История конструкций самолетов в СССР 1938-1950 гг. (3 изд.). (in Russisn) Moscow: Машиностроение, 1994. ISBN 5-217-00477-0. (Shavrov, V.B. Istoriia konstruktskii samoletov v SSSR, 1938-1950 gg. (3rd ed.). translation: History of Aircraft design in USSR: 1938-1950. Moscow: Mashinostroenie Publishing House, 1994. ISBN 5-217-00477-0.)
    * Shores, Christopher. Ground Attack Aircraft of World War II. London: Macdonald and Jane's, 1977. ISBN 0-35608-338-1.
    * Stapfer, Hans-Heiri. Il-2 Stormovik in Action (Aircraft number 155). Carrollton, TX: Squadron/Signal Publications, Inc., 1995. ISBN 0-89747-341-8.

[Rich46yo]

The 37mms didnt take away at all from the actual bombload. In the actual plane. Ive even read reports IL2-3s even carried loads up to 1,000 kg.

The IL2 was rated for 6 of the bombs. 4 in the bay and 2 on hardpoints.

In actuality many different weapon types were used. PTAbs were a favorite. 200 of them were loaded into a big canister that fit in the bomb bay. I also believe separate PTAB canisters were loaded under the wings. Ive read accounts of 4 IL2s dropping 1200 PTABs on a tank column from 500' and taking out numerous tanks, including 4 Tigers.

AZh-2 incendiaries were also popular IL2 ords. And of course rockets. But the most effective weapons against armor were the PTABs and incendiaries. The cannon too...obviously.

Actual Soviet records and accounts of their aircraft operations are so sketchy. First off the very nature of their war of desperation called for a lot of sorties, losing a lot of personnel, under terrible conditions, in a very fast moving frontline of tactical air operations. They just didn't bother with keeping a lot of records. The 8'th AF would land and give a debriefing. The Red AF would land, if they weren't already kilt, and upp again. With low odds of even returning. Then you have the very nature of a secretive, paranoid Police State that shrouded record keeping even more.

However the day in the life of an IL2 driver can still be found. The weapons he used. The tactics employed. the evolution of a tactical Air Force that finished the war 2nd to none. Here is one such info Gem, just skip to page 16 to start. http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA346360&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

I could just hear the howling from the GV crowd if we started chucking PTABs out of IL2s. My best guess is we wont get the full ord capability of the airplane but we still have a very effective attacker in Aces High. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06pTRe24h0s

Enjoy the .pdf. Its a good read on Soviet Tactics.

[E25280]

Would the extra bombs take the place of the rockets, then?  i.e. what we are really missing is an option to take 2 100kg bombs in place of the rockets?

[Anaxogoras]

The "and/or" is a little ambiguous.

In Oleg's sim the range of loadouts you can take in the Il-2 type 3 is bewildering:

• 4xRS-82
• 4xBRS-82
• 4xRS-132
• 4xROFS-132
• 4xBRS-132
• 4xM-13
• 4xAJ-2 cassette
• 96xPTAB-2.5 + 4xRS-82
• 192xPTAB-2.5
• 30xAO-10
• 50xAO-10
• 4xFAB-50
• 4xFAB-50 + 4xRS-82
• 4xFAB-50 + 4xRS-132
• 4xFAB-50 + 4xROFS-132
• 6xFAB-50
• 2xFAB-100
• 2xFAB-100 + 4xRS-82
• 2xFAB-100 + 4xRS-132
• 4xFAB-100
• 6xFAB-100
• 2xFAB-250
• 2xVAP250

The 37mm Il-2 is almost the same except that you have no option for 6x50kg, 4x100kg, 6x100kg, nor for either type of 250kg bomb.  The options the 37mm version lacks are in bold above.

I know that what another flight sim does is not evidence in the same way as a primary or even a secondary source, but it's interesting to see how they did it.  Ultimately, it seems like the 23mm should have some sort of ordnance options that the 37mm version lacks.  A couple of 250kg bombs would be more useful for killing tanks than the 100kg bombs you can carry now.

[E25280]

A couple of 250kg bombs would be more useful for killing tanks than the 100kg bombs you can carry now.

This used to be an option before they added the 37mm gun package.  I suspect it was because they didn't have a way to make the ord options depend on your gun package without making it a separate model altogether.

[Enker]

The "and/or" is a little ambiguous.
<Le list snip>

The 37mm Il-2 is almost the same except that you have no option for 6x50kg, 4x100kg, 6x100kg, nor for either type of 250kg bomb.  The options the 37mm version lacks are in bold above.

I know that what another flight sim does is not evidence in the same way as a primary or even a secondary source, but it's interesting to see how they did it.  Ultimately, it seems like the 23mm should have some sort of ordnance options that the 37mm version lacks.  A couple of 250kg bombs would be more useful for killing tanks than the 100kg bombs you can carry now.

It might work like the 110s in terms of adding explosives to the gun package. There would be a 23mm loadout, a 37mm loadout, a 23mm and 2x100kg loadout, and a 23mm and 2x250kg loadout that locks out all the other ordinance packages.

[Rich46yo]

So whats the criteria for load outs?

Whats loaded in another sim or what was loaded in real life? Forget the size of the cannon cause the airframe had the same ord capacity regardless.

Either way it isnt going to matter. They arent going to change the ord load out and HiTech, in his wisdom, has saved us all from hearing a lot of grief by not modeling PTABs.

I could see it now, and hear it. Some LowRider gets his Tiger zapped by a PTAB and he comes trotting in here saying how a bomblet that could go thru 70mm of armor plate in the war is over-modeled here cause it went thru the 25mm thick top of his tank.

[Anaxogoras]

Rich, it's very likely that you're right that the 37mm variant could carry just as much, but it's also very likely that it was typical for it to carry less because performance and handling were degraded.  For the most part, HTC restricts loadouts to what was common, though the P-51D would seem to be an exception to this rule with its 1k lb bombs.  I hope I made myself clear that what another sim does, even if it's Russian made, doesn't count as evidence like a primary or secondary source.

Either way it isnt going to matter. They arent going to change the ord load out and HiTech, in his wisdom, has saved us all from hearing a lot of grief by not modeling PTABs.

I disagree.

[Wmaker]

Whats loaded in another sim or what was loaded in real life? Forget the size of the cannon cause the airframe had the same ord capacity regardless.

Do you have source that you base this on?

[Rich46yo]

Rich, it's very likely that you're right that the 37mm variant could carry just as much, but it's also very likely that it was typical for it to carry less because performance and handling were degraded.  For the most part, HTC restricts loadouts to what was common, though the P-51D would seem to be an exception to this rule with its 1k lb bombs.  I hope I made myself clear that what another sim does, even if it's Russian made, doesn't count as evidence like a primary or secondary source.

I disagree.

You dont drop bombs and shoot cannons at the same time.....................OK.. ..........I take that back. It appears I was wrong. In actuality the bombload of an IL2, equiped with NS-37s, was reduced due to arodynamic issues. I had always thought the HP increase of the AM-38F provided for adequate performance for even the NS-37 equipped IL2s to carry normal bombloads. Statements such as this 

two-seat Il-2m3, with air frame refinements which raised the top speed by 21 mph (33.8 km/h), and a formidable 37 mm NS-11 or P-37 cannon in place of the 20 mm ShVAK or 23 mm VYa cannon, four 132 mm RS-132 rockets and launchers able to dispense 200 PTAB hollow-charge anti-tank bombs. Other changes introduced on the production lines included the installation of the more powerful 1,720 hp (1,282 kW) AM-38F engine, various aerodynamic refinements meant to improve performance and to compensate for the increased weight of the gunner and revised armament, the enforced introduction of wooden outer wing panels (replacing metal), and increased fuel capacity

http://www.savagesquadron.com/SUpage/SUBombers/IL_2.htm I have found in numerous sources that would seem to indicate there was no reduction in bombload in the type-3 NS-37s.

Further research would indicate this wasnt true.

Not that it would matter to me. I almost never upp with Ords anyway. The bombload simply not being usefull enough to warrant the performance hit in the game. Most of all when your fighting IL2s with a lot of enemy fighters around, which Im always doing.

Anyhoo, thanks for setting me on the right track. History must always be respected by being factual.

[Anaxogoras]

Ok Rich, no worries.

HT?  Can we add a couple more ordnance options to the 23mm Il-2?  What say ye?

[Noir]

Ok Rich, no worries.

HT?  Can we add a couple more ordnance options to the 23mm Il-2?  What say ye?

I think you missed the remodel train  I liked the 2x250kg bombs, was nice to pop the flaks before eating the main tank course.