Author Topic: P38 Dive Flaps?  (Read 1498 times)

Offline Tac

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2001, 11:38:00 PM »
I KNEW my baby could fly faster and turn better.

Keep the data coming Widewing, thanks for your efforts! You too Badboy! Lets get the P-38 right in AH      

Offline Vermillion

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2001, 07:20:00 AM »
It'll still just be a target... a very BIG target  

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Vermillion
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Offline BBGunn

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »
Thanks for taking time to post the charts: I took a second look at Martin Caidins book and there is one reference to an IAS of 445 as being the max safe speed at 36,000 (mach number .675).  Thats fairly close to the chart.  Since the speed of sound is about 765mph near sea level at 60degrees F and is approx 105mph slower at 36,000 feet this makes sense.  In a nutshell I believe that HiTech should consider giving the P38L another 50mph of speed before it looses elevator control at 15-16K and below.  That would give it about 500mph before the elevator control gets weak.  I think that would be good in AH.  As far as the rate of turn increase when dive flaps are deployed-I have no idea other than that it was mentioned by American pilots who fought against Me109's and FW190's to increase turn rate for both offensive and defensive combat.

[This message has been edited by BBGunn (edited 01-26-2001).]

Offline Badboy

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2001, 08:49:00 PM »
I found a minute to search through my Lockheed data and turned this up.

     

Chart was signed and dated April 1942. I have one other dated 1940, but it was estimated and quite optimistic.

Leon "Badboy" Smith



[This message has been edited by Badboy (edited 01-27-2001).]
The Damned (est. 1988)
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Offline Badboy

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2001, 08:07:00 AM »
The 1940 dive curves, while only estimates, show a curve for anticipated compression effects. I find that interesting because it shows that they were considering the problem quite early on, but that they were actually quite far off the mark. Just saying.

Leon "Badboy" Smith
The Damned (est. 1988)
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Offline BBGunn

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
Historical note: I think it may have been Kelly Johnson at Lockheed who predicted compressibility sensitivity with the P38 early on.

Offline Westy

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2001, 02:34:00 PM »
<punt> for you know who

Offline batdog

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2001, 02:39:00 PM »
Just because I'm an idiot with a dream...

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Tac

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2001, 05:54:00 PM »
I love you westy! you a true pal.

Oh..he meant HT.. of course...

Ht.. git on it!      

bahlooo

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
Forgive my foolsome ignorance, but I fail to comprehend why the P-38 is just a target in the arena. I mean, we don't freeze our butts off in the cockpit because of ill fitting gun cowlings. We don't need to worry about engine problems, control complexity, or anything else that prevented it from going down in history as a truly excellent plane.

So shouldn't the P-38L be a damned competent airplane in AH? Seems to me like a twin engined paper airplane that broadcasts an "Attack me, I'm in a P-38" to everyone in the sector...

P-38s were anything but paper airplanes.

Offline batdog

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
 Okies... I'm throwing this stuff up tp bring attention to a percieved FM problem. I wish to remain civil and to give HTC the chance to respond? I've heard that several FM's are unfinished... is this what the 38 is?

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Bodhi

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2001, 06:49:00 AM »
Well guys, I can tell you this frommy experiences ctually working on a 38.  The dive flap, is actually not a flap, but instead is actually a spoiler.  This spoiler, disrupts airflow, increases drag, Tremendously, and should have an IMMEDIATE effect on slowing the aircraft.  Yet, even though I have worked on it, I do know that actual flight info is golden, so I do ask 38 pilots, when you can actually find one, about that system, and they generally say that it kept the aircraft under control.

So, who knows, to me, it seems that the effectiveness of the flap is under modeled.
I regret doing business with TD Computer Systems.

Offline Tac

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2001, 09:34:00 PM »
Actually Bodhi, I think it is non-existent. I trim the elev full up to pull out of a compression, when compressed the dive flaps do zilch, when initiating a power dive, they do zilch.

The do turn on a yellow light in the cockpit though...  

I have a scanned copy of some pages of HANGAR FLYING, a magazine issued to P-38 pilots that was used to give the pilots more info, directly from the test pilots trying out new stuff in the US as well as stuff from vet pilots. 6 pages are dedicated to dive flaps and they say that if the dive flaps were extended BEFORE the dive, you could keep the aircraft under control when you hit compression (under control meaning without the "tuck under" and without a "nose up" effect mentioned next-> ) , and if they were deployed AFTER the dive, when at or when near compression, the flaps would then produce an inmediate nose up lift that would pull the 38 by itself...the test pilot in the magazine even said that it would pull a neat loop all by itself if you let it.

Another thing that amazes me is the accel..or drag..or prop drag or whatchamacallit that makes a 25% fuel 38, at 10k and 100mph dive with full military power and gain 400mph (watching the white tick marker, not the red real speed one) at 5k, then trying it again at 10k, starting with 100mph.. turn engine OFF, wait for props to stop..diving same angle.. and get to 360 mph at 5k. So what, the engine only pulls 40 mph in 5k of diving? I would love if someone else tried this, im astonished.

HT, I think you should look at these P-38 magazines, i'll try and get as many as possible for ya if ye want them, a fellow AH'r was a lucky tard and got them on E-bay   . Where can I submit them (5megs what I have now)?

Offline BigCrate

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2002, 07:04:32 PM »
OK OK Badboy I supplied that 38 info to ya man.. Tfs#1 here
badz it been a while man.. ( i think)i hoped that stuff would help ya outr some time :) I got all kinds of stuff on the 38.. old airpower mags fight manuals stuff from lockheed from my dad and uncles etc. etc. :)
I'm gonna give ya a link to look up something thast migh help this some more..
http://www.p-38online.com/cmprs.html

anyway i'm gonna try to post some stuff on turnin the 38 and some other tactics.. Badz should have that stuff to its out of a air power mag.

Offline Tac

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P38 Dive Flaps?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2002, 07:19:45 PM »
Dont want to know why a thread a year old came up, but any info on the 38 , not matter how old, is always welcome :)